39 replies to this topic

[neferefer]

What do people think about the fact that the damage modifier with EDP is halved for Rolling Cutter and Cross Ripper Slasher on Leika?

 

I was under the impression that even with the expensive and short-lived EDP pots, GX wasn't really the strongest class in PVE, PVP, or WOE. They don't play a significant party role, but they do pretty well at leveling solo, and hunting high flee MVPs solo. It's always assumed that a GX will be using EDP+RC at all times to level, and without certain difficult to obtain gears, they have to use regular HP and SP pots like everyone else in addition to EDP pots.

 

The above is the general consensus on the class as seen in official servers, where Rolling Cutter and Cross Ripper Slasher do full damage with EDP. I'm not really knowledgeable enough to make a less-than surface-level analysis such as the one above, but I just want to query people's take on this custom addition.

[Zenske]

custom modifications? no thx... my opinion.

[Terpsichore]

Issue is that the damage skyrockets with high raw ATK gear and buffs, reaching absurd levels, those skills are in no way weaker than CI so they deserve the same treatment.

 

I'd like to do something about EDP though, right now it suffers from serious scaling issues, being garbage with mediocre gear but pretty broken once you start stacking ATK.

 

Renewal's EDP formula is pretty stupid, it would make more sense to revert it to pre-renewal behavior (% increase) so it remains good at all gear levels and doesn't skyrocket to extreme levels past a certain point.

[neferefer]

So is this a concern in PVE or WOE? How about making it a WOE nerf, the way flee is halved? I'd like to see an experienced GX weigh in on this, but I wonder how fair it is to have this customization, or at least a customization of this magnitude. I wouldn't mind you implementing a more workable solution than just heavily nerfing one aspect of the mechanic.

 

Presumably the reason Rolling Cutter and Cross Ripper Slasher do full damage in official is because neither of them are usable with dual wield, and neither deal instant huge burst-damage like Cross Impact. Rolling Cutter only goes as quickly as you can be bothered to spam, and CRS can't really be considered instant when it requires you to pre-cast and then move around with Back Slide in order to use. The reading I've done on GXes to date said that GXes excel in crit against MVPs, burst damage from dual wield Cross Impact in PVP and WOE, and leveling and PVMing with Rolling Cutter. Bear in mind I that only found out about this customization today, but I've not read anything that suggests that Rolling Cutter and Cross Ripper Slasher are incredibly overpowered to the extent that this current customization is indisputable. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I definitely wouldn't mind the mechanic being investigated again.

Edited by neferefer, 27 January 2015 - 05:26 PM.

[Terpsichore]

CI doesn't do any real damage if you aren't dual wielding either.

 

I still believe that the best way to deal with this issue is changing EDP to pre-renewal behavior.

[neferefer]

Ok, well, I'll leave this discussion to you and the other GXes. I've had limited EDP experience both pre- and post-renewal, so I hope other GXes will chime in.

[Scias]

Although I do feel GX's need some love for the lower and mid level players, I agree that CRS and spinning aren't the ways to use it, but that's just my personal opinion because I personally enjoy either CI or aspd builds, never really enjoyed rolling cutter in WoE, always thought it more a levelling skill. And CRS for me is just dumb no matter the dmg because leaving yourself exposed for 10 spins just feels stupid to me. The way GX traditionally for me has incidentally been more of a support class, killing supports and people who are already trapped or disabled, and applying various poisons and curing poisons. I find they are a good class for saving the life of somebody else who is in a 1v1 battle but disabling with poisons or hitlocking them. But that's just because they do need some kind of boost, even if it is just a lower tier more balanced boost like you say.

[FlashCombo]

EDP is fine. Ive never seen a huge problem with it. Even a low level, who uses a Eden katar enchanted or Durga will get a huge increase in damage.
RC has always been a leveling skill, if you got murdered by it in PVP you must have done something wrong in my opinion. (1to1 situation)
RC has very low base mod (300% base). Halving it will only hurt lower level playes. Almost all renewal skills scale with level to give a proper proper curve for leveling players.
CRS isnt even crazy strong, even with a maxed skill count. (Damage (ATK)% = (Base_Damage × BaseLv ÷ 100) + (AGI × SpinCount))
As you can see the Agi part adds alot to the damage. 160 agi (not that hard to get with 120 base agi+ 15 Agi up + 9 Job + 16 from food/gear) adds 1600% if it has 10 spoin count, which not only takes time to get there (easy to avoid), easily reduced by gear or outranged. Sure it has the highest possible multiplier from the assassin class, but its requirement make it plain gimmicky against someone who knows how to play.

Personally i have never seen anyone get one shot by this when they were properly geared, especially not in WoE with mechanical reductions. It is strong, but limited. Thats balancing.

It makes no sense to halve skill mods for these 2 skills.

Where as Cross Impact is a simple 1500% skill, that can be basically dual casted with any weapon and triple and quadra casted with 185+ Aspd. It has a four (!!!) cell range, making it easy to use out of stealth with pretty good safety. A halved mod with EDP here makes sense because this skill would simply be too strong with little to no drawback.

The other skill that is officialy halved by EDP is Counter Slash. I am not entirely sure why they went with that but my guess here is the fact that its 3x3 splash AoE that can critically strike(!!!). Its damage also scales with stats (agi * 2% to base mod) and ignores enemy defense(!!!).

So as you can see there were clear reasons gravity pulled the half skill mod on those. Halving rolling cutter makes absolutely no sense for me. And while it boosted CRS also strong damage, the skill remains limited in its use. (I also think it will never reach the damage potentional of Counter Slash and is neither AoE)

GX's "Sure Kill" was already nerfed reworked here ( and i highly agree with the change) by changing dark claw's effect to a more reasonable number and ussage.

Why further nerf a broken class when its perfectly working on officials. If it were so broken the "GX to other class Ratio" on officials would be absurd, but it isnt. GX badly handles crowds in WoE, are easily killed once spotted (Their high HP pool only helps if you swap to full redux, but then youre basically useless or a debuff bitch) and were always designed to take care of squishys and isolated targets. That is nowhere as broken as Terp seems to make it (in my opinion).

In my opinion  EDP needs to be reverted to its original and official effect. Right now GX are dumbfcked and have an insanely hard time keeping up with anyone else. If the class is further nerfed you might aswell delete it.

I am not asking for more damage. I am asking for a revert to official behaviour.

[JustHateMe]

Okay i think to halve the only 2 GOOD dps skills with edp is not such a good idea cause People will drop that cls because with that "Rework" they

are kinda useless there is not any dps Skill, cause Counter Slash need to be a Proc from Weapon blocking which can take time....

Also sure you can one shot people with CRS its possible if 2 things happen 1.st you fight against a Person without any Redux Gear and 2.you got

ALL possible buffs and the Target got debuffed with all things like Lex deep sleep or what ever then you can one shot them but you will also need the 10spin count. Also CI its possible to one shot people but also here you need the 2 points above. I played Glt Cross for more then 3years i think i can say i know how to play this Cls its not just a i got a Katar + 1 Edp and can make a One shot festival.

I think the "One Shoot Festival" is only possible against non Geard People we got alot of good people here on Leika so they will farm gear for WoE/PvP.

 

Okay that was the WoE/PvP Part now the PvM Part

 

Did you ever level up a Glt Cross? Cause NOBODY will say Okay we need you in our level party so you will level up most of the Time Solo and there you will use Rolling Cutter for Bigger Mobs (Magma Dun, Juperos, Lhz Dun.....) and maybe Cross Impact for Single Target if you want you can use EDP´s to Slay the mobs faster but here i tried it and without edp my dmg was 2409 and with Edp i did 2765 which means its a "Buff" for 356 which is not really worth it to use/Waste the Bottles.

So Please think about a other way you can handle this because if you say it would be to OP then i will say okay whats with the OverBrand skill from Royal Guard it deals at least 2?? hits i saw here already Rgs which hits for 30k + 17k  thats without a wall with a Wall there will be a 3.th hit with arround idk 8-10k which makes a total of 30+21+9= 60k. You will NEVER reach 60k with Rolling cutter....

 

 

 

P.S I will also link a Old WoE Video to show what you can be as glt cross if you got EndGame gear but you will never get these here i think ^^

2x Megingjards, +10 Glorious Bloody Roar, +9 Mercury Raiser(Gemini Card), Elven Ears (Gemini Card), Gentleman Pipe ,+9Bavery Bag with Noxious, Some Ele Armors: Unfrozen Fire armor Ghosty Valk armor etc. Combat Knife +9 Cranial Valk Shield, Sleipnir. Sure With this Gear you can One Shot some People but not even All and Everything..

 

https://www.youtube....RbCisezOaGjQ6gQ

[Lexii]

RIP EDP.

[Aina]

EDP is fine. Ive never seen a huge problem with it. 

I disagree. It's not worth when you're low level/don't have end games equips, but at end game its simply broken from what I saw.

 

ie.

 

 

I think that using the old EDP formula will be better for both cases, early game - making it more appeling for people early game, and don't trivializing things later on when people actually have the tools used in the video.

[Byte]

we'll be changing EDP to no longer halve RC's modifier and see where we can go from there. we're also talking about reducing the rest of the modifiers by 25% instead of 50%. Dark Claw wasn't changed to balance the GX class itself, it was changed because Dark Claw + other class' skills were way too good. considering changing it so that the GX can deal full (+150%) damage to the target while other players will only deal +50%. oh right, did I mention we're buffing Dark Claw to +50% for now?

 

using the older pre-re EDP formula gives GX linear scaling which is really pretty boring. the point of our customizations are to be nothing but healthy and positive net gains for the server and the players, and we seem to have overshot that a bit with our worries about pre-175 GX. we'll be looking into this further and as I said, seeing what we can do to help the class out in certain areas without going overboard.

[Terpsichore]

The old EDP formula would solve all the issues brough up though, it makes perfect sense.

[Scias]

In my opinion it remains to be seen whether the 400% flat modifier would work in this servers scenario, given that it is a pre-renewal formula. However I do like the idea alot especially if it avoids scenarios like in the video Aina posted. Here's my opinion.


Existing formula:

advantages: Makes CRS and burst damage builds legitimate, and makes top tier gear desirable.

disadvantages: Makes ungeared/low GX's very difficult to level or find any use for other than poison builds, and in parties sometimes forces you to resort to the backslide-yggdrasil leaf scheme which I'm getting too good at for my own liking.
Also makes top geared GX's more than legitimate, arguably overpowered.
Makes aspd builds pretty bad in my experience.


Pre-re formula:

Advantages: Gives all GX's a chance at being powerful and useful from a very early stage.
Makes aspd/crit builds legitimate, opening up a choice of builds that GX's can choose from, whether it is CI, CRS, spin, aspd, or poison builds. That is a big advantage imo, having the choice between several builds for GX is vital.
Should any blatant balance problems occur such as general OP-ness or generally underpowered, I assume that this flat % modifier can easily be adjusted.

Disadvantages: Remains to be seen if this would make top tier gear not worth the effort imo. In this case boosting GX specific high tier gears may be the only fix, making the server feel more "custom" which is often a bad thing.
And remains to be seen if this would cause unforeseen problems in the current renewal climate, given that this is a formula coming from 2nd class in a pre-re environment.


Hybrid custom formula:

Advantages: Could be the best of both worlds if the pre-re formula causes trivialization problems, combining a % modifier with the modern atk based boost.
Potentially the most balanced solution making things easier for new GX's yet still making top tier gear virtually as desirably as before.

Disadvantages: Could take allot of time and effort to create, test, balance and implement.
May not be necessary if pre-re formula doesn't cause any of the above problems.

Just some off the cuff opinions on this, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about anything.

Edited by Scias, 28 January 2015 - 04:14 PM.

[FlashCombo]

WTF. I DONT EVEN KNOW WHERE TO START XD

 

The amount of CRAP said is hideous.
 

Aina

 

I disagree. It's not worth when you're low level/don't have end games equips, but at end game its simply broken from what I saw.

 

ie.

 

 

I think that using the old EDP formula will be better for both cases, early game - making it more appeling for people early game, and don't trivializing things later on when people actually have the tools used in the video.

 

You are the funniest clown showing this video from jRO. Did you even read the description, did oyu check his gear. Did you notice he using multiple MVP cards, including using skilsl such as Berserk. Do you realise Dark claw is +150% dmg there and not 50% liek here. Do you realise you will NEVER have these gears in your entire life? (legitimely) You will never have lord knight card. You will never have Gloomy Card.  You make me laugh, seriously, good example mate. Let me show you how my Sura deals 8 million asura damage overbuffed and over mvp geared and then lets start ranting about asura and get it nerfed. Made my day! Lets not forget giant growth.

 

Byte

 

we'll be changing EDP to no longer halve RC's modifier and see where we can go from there

 

You are forgetting CRS, but oh well...

 

Byte

 

oh right, did I mention we're buffing Dark Claw to +50% for now?

 

Yea i'm sure YOU discussed that alot.... *laughs*

 

Terpsichore

 

The old EDP formula would solve all the issues brough up though, it makes perfect sense.

 

I disagree. It does not make any sense to me, because,aside from the EDP nerfs, its working just fine.

 

Scias
Existing formula:

advantages: Makes CRS and burst damage builds legitimate, and makes top tier gear desirable.

disadvantages: Makes ungeared/low GX's very difficult to level or find any use for other than poison builds, and in parties sometimes forces you to resort to the backslide-yggdrasil leaf scheme which I'm getting too good at for my own liking.
Also makes top geared GX's more than legitimate, arguably overpowered.
Makes aspd builds pretty bad in my experience.

 

 

I agree except for the part that low levels cannot level with edp. We cannot atm because Admins nerfed it. once its reverted you can level just fine.

 

My friend at level 110 had like 280 equip+weapon ATK. Check the video form the clown above. Its not much less, theres no problem getting sufficient amount of ATK even in early stages. The ATK doesnt vary much. ATK isnt the problem, i dont know why people keep saying that. Its a poor excuse and misconception.

 

Just revert EDP to its fricken normal renewal formula and all problems will be solved. The shit you see in the above video can be ignored.

[Terpsichore]

EDP being fine past a certain gear level simply isn't true but whatever, it will be reverted for now and most likely toned down again once people gear up and start to realize the issues it creates in PvP.

[Aina]

WTF. I DONT EVEN KNOW WHERE TO START XD

 

The amount of CRAP said is hideous.
 

Aina

 

I disagree. It's not worth when you're low level/don't have end games equips, but at end game its simply broken from what I saw.

 

ie.

 

 

I think that using the old EDP formula will be better for both cases, early game - making it more appeling for people early game, and don't trivializing things later on when people actually have the tools used in the video.

 

You are the funniest clown showing this video from jRO. Did you even read the description, did oyu check his gear. Did you notice he using multiple MVP cards, including using skilsl such as Berserk. Do you realise Dark claw is +150% dmg there and not 50% liek here. Do you realise you will NEVER have these gears in your entire life? (legitimely) You will never have lord knight card. You will never have Gloomy Card.  You make me laugh, seriously, good example mate. Let me show you how my Sura deals 8 million asura damage overbuffed and over mvp geared and then lets start ranting about asura and get it nerfed. Made my day! Lets not forget giant growth.

 

You're so mad that I can't even see anymore.

 

You actually think that a GX need the exact same cards and gears used in the video to the same things right? Or the meaning of "example".

Oh, or its the jRO maymay again? :^)

 

 

Ice Pick, Face Worm, Temporal Luck Boots, Aunoe Card, Vanberk Card/Angra Mantis Card, Foods, Abrasive and the glorious Hallu Walk.

 

You don't need to be so defensive tho, this is a discussion topic, it's expected for people to have different opinions.

Edited by Aina, 29 January 2015 - 04:51 AM.

[FlashCombo]

Yes and MVPs hitting for nothing compared to our server :^3
(and doing nothing)

Also how do you know his gear? DId you check the topic? i read it like 1 month ago with the ridic stuff you will also never have here :)
Faceform is not even on this server. But yes, lets keep getting videos from some rich folks on officials and set it as example.
Why dont you start doing this with other classes?
Clown

Also 20k hits seem much more reasonable than 2mil hits, just sayin :^)

Edited by FlashCombo, 29 January 2015 - 02:55 PM.

[Lyka]

The point was top end damage was fucking retarded. Faceworm only gives a HP & SP bonus when its used as a set. Rest of that gear isn't so unobtainable.

 

Muh edits.

 

Anyway, lets not cherry pick and insult eh. It's getting reverted anyway, lets see how it goes.

Edited by Lyka, 29 January 2015 - 03:01 PM.

[FlashCombo]

Ah well thats only half true. faceworm skin will always be dropped with 3 random enchants. Some of them are quite good that increase stats up to +10 and give other bonuses :) So faceworm skin does add to damage, but he probably meant the faceworm dagger which is insanely overpowered because it spams EQ at a really high rate (as you could see).

The person shown in the video is using a very specific build. Dual Dagger, without ever leveling Double Attack. And the rest you can see in the topic.

 

Its just you can not set this as an example (What they are clearly trying to do) and bash Assassins. Because quite honestly, on a similar scale, any class will destroy pve content. You should check RKs and RGs. A mere 150 sura soloing timeholder no sweat. Saw a minstrel solo beelze in Survival Dungeon. The list goes on. The moment you are heavily overgeared youre gonna rekk pve. But getting there takes along time. (or alot of money)