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#1 Scias

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 09:34 PM

While I agree with the direction the server is going in, I disagree with some of the methods it is using for applying these changes. In particular I will talk about MvP buffs/skills, specifically Lost Dragons Kaupe and Evil Land, which I'm told it now has. I did read this http://leika-ro.net/...-mvps-strength/ but wanted to make a new topic as a suggestion.

 

Bear in mind I am really posting this thread on behalf of a few quite a lot of players who have brought these changes to my attention, such as Hammer and Zandak among others. I didn't see a real suggestion to change this so I thought I would post it. I do feel that this is the opinion of quite a few players now but I'm told I'm known for being diplomatic so I thought I would represent these players by vocalizing this. Also feel free to correct any errors I have made, because I am going by what I'm told by those who surpass me in PvM endeavours so I don't necessarily have first hand experiences in the examples like fighting Lost Dragon.

The direction of the server:

The idea to make things more challenging, balance rangers back down to the level of other classes so that they can't solo things so easily, in effect prolonging the economy and reducing saturation of gears, is something I wholeheartedly agree with. I am on board.

 

The methodology of achieving this:

So far we have seen some instances where radical changes have been applied without prior public knowledge or discussion. Most recently Lost Dragon has been given skills which nobody imagined it would have, such as the linkers skill Kaupe, and it spams it quite alot from what I hear. We also had other changes such as Stonehard which took place in the sudden radical manner which thankfully is now removed from most MvPs that had it. To summarize, there are two parts of the recent mentality of server changes which I disagree with:

 

1: Lack of prior discussion or warning with the public about upcoming changes,

 

2: The degree of extremity and radical nature of these changes

 

 

My proposed solution:

Open discussions about changes that happen like these, prior to releasing them. This doesn't need to apply to every change to the server, but only the radical ones such as changing the skills of monsters and MvPs. The other thing to do would be to achieve a similar balance by changing MvPs in a different way, such as by changing their stats rather than skills. Remember Rangers are already getting hit fairly hard (arguably not hard enough yet, that's a different discussion, but still), so when changing MvPs you can change them universally, by increasing their HP (I hear this has happened already for some, which is a change I agree with). Changes in stats like this I wouldn't expect you to notify us of first tbh.

 

My suggestion is not to squarely prevent any new skills added to MvPs or monsters atall, but it is to give us a chance to discuss these changes first. The main reason for this, and this is a very big and important reason imo, is there should be a very real discussion on whether these changes will make the server feel too "custom". I understand things need to be changed and different from official in order to balance; like I said I agree with the direction the server is going in. But the changes that are too radical at least warrants some discussion with the public first. At the moment, I wouldn't say Lost Dragon encourages teamwork, as much as it completely changes the strategy of attacking it. I believe there are better ways to encourage teamwork, without changing the meta of the game to the point where it arguably feels so "custom" that you are constantly aware that this is nothing like the Ragnarok you know, compared to previous renewal servers (that were actually decent) let alone official servers.

 

Applying radical changes without any warning or discussion, could in rare cases hurt the economy, but more than this, could hurt the player experience, for example if people bought Mora gear for 20 coins, they would probably be disappointed now. "Test driving on the public" is going to be inevitable to a certain extent, but it can be minimized by considering some different opinions prior to applying changes.


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#2 Syncope

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 10:15 PM

Fuck PvM. PvP/BG/WoE hasnt been given any attention at all.


Edited by Syncope, 04 February 2015 - 10:23 PM.


#3 Neri

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 10:22 PM

People are still killing stuff and getting gear? Time to nerf more and more things



#4 Terpsichore

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 10:30 PM

Lost Dragon always had Evil Land, I guess it's being noticed now because it doesn't instantly drop dead anymore and actually has time to use skills. As for Kaupe, it was done in order to prevent the hit and run portal "tactics", or at least make them a bit harder.  Kaupe only happens on idle and is removed with one hit so it has no effect during actual fights.

 

Simply increasing HP (or adding skills like Stoneskin) has been proven to only hurt actual parties while doing nothing to combat the actual issues.

 

Lost Dragon is a prime example of this issue because of very small maps and easy access to portal, and let's face it, instance cooldown bug is widely abused to farm OCAs, MvP itself uses low level skills so you don't need amazing gear to deal with it.

 

 

I do agree with the rest though and will be more communicative from now on.



#5 Scias

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 10:52 PM

I was told Kaupe was spammed way too much, but like I said I don't have first hand experience so my information could be inaccurate. I will leave it up to other people to discuss with you if they disagree with that. I'm basically surprised nobody made this thread before me, given the amount of complaints I hear in game. Players are just as guilty for not being openly communicative if they don't report something they find troubling.

 

In my opinion the nerfs on Rangers might be sufficient to sinking these MvPs and gears enough, especially if you go ahead and nerf them more. But I believe there must be some kind of alternative to adding new skills to MvPs, but they can be discussed in the relevant threads. Players must take advantage of this server being open to discussion rather than other servers that close off any topic that has any hint of becoming "flamed". Even Psor's opinion is worth reading sometimes.


Edited by Scias, 04 February 2015 - 10:53 PM.


#6 NiHZ

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 11:58 PM

Even Psor's opinion is worth reading sometimes.

 

Hee.

 

But yeah, I get really frustrated when I try to tell people to post what they're trying to explain to me on the forums and they say "But I'm too lazy to make an account" or "but it'll just be ignored or flamed". No it won't and don't mistake discussion and disagreement for flaming. There's only so much we can do to read your minds.


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#7 Scias

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 12:00 AM

Well remember I only said Psor's opinion is worth reading, not that it's worth considering ufufuf.


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#8 FlashCombo

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 01:44 AM

I agree with Scias' posts. Infact i have been preaching this since the very start of all this customising. (You can see me create various topics and posts questioning various balancing errors)

 

I highly like the Kaupe change and it should still. We have killed all endgame mvps and saw some noticeable buffs to them outside the Kaupe thing and the most annoying, that you havent noticed yet, every MVP worth killing now teleports away in idle. This happens about every 3 minutes? The cast time is somewhat short, 5 seconds. That means if you get wiped, good luck finding and luring or preparing the MVP again. (very annoying for beelze,morroc and ifrit because these are usually long lasting fights that can wipe parties with insta kill EQs or other random shit.) Idle on Leika RO also happens, when no one is on screen or even on the map. That means if you respawn in town, your MVP is gone.

 

Needs to be removed, its not making anything harder, it affects all legit parties such as ours and is extremely frustrating. When i asked Terp i think she said its gonna be removedby the next maintenace / patch.

Also we noticed other skills that mvp use now, or changes to current skills. I think Ifrit uses Full strip on chase (ranged) now, which was either a bug or is extremely retarded. I saw beelze use some poison skill in second form, not sure if new or just died under his constant LP spam. he also drains pretty much 100% sp at some point which is also extremly dumb but what ever, might have been "bad rng luck".

 

OGH mvps got definitely buffed. Spamming all kinds of crazy shit now, last one was kinda harmless for our party, first one spams stone screen, sp gone, silence and 3rd class skills. its still clearable if you KNOW what is coming.

 

The problem with all these changes is, again, they come without warning, without asking, so players are dumbfounded when they get wiped by something they simply didnt expect.

I dont wanna know how other mvps got changed, and to be honest im worried about finding out. We can clear any content, even with these teleport stuff going about (infact we killed beelze not long ago) but we can still say some things are plain over kill and unnecessary. They dont add challenge, they add frustrations. Hard / Annoying are 2 different things. One doesnt have to mean the other.

As for PVP and WOE. Yea we were promised WoE announcement during 2x EXP event. Nothing yet. I must agree here that its about time something has been decided, balanced and announced.


Edited by FlashCombo, 05 February 2015 - 01:47 AM.


#9 Terpsichore

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 02:58 AM

Amon also gives a whole lot more EXP, it's just no longer a free OCA on a wheelchair, entirely harmless.

 

All MvPs had their rewards boosted since they're harder now. There's not much point in having a dozen of MvPs that die to one arrow storm and give no EXP, is there?

 

 

Intention is to make killing MvPs for EXP relevant, so it isn't all about mashing Eden Quests up to 175, which promotes ET parties in turn.



#10 Innomite

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 04:37 AM

 

Pretty much what has been discussed on here. I don't see how hard this ^ is.


Edited by Byte, 03 August 2015 - 07:29 AM.


#11 Tesdey

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 05:24 AM

As a new player on this server, I would greatly appreciate it if you guys could solve this problem. 

It's kinda lame to get one-shotted by spells of mobs of my lv.  



#12 Neri

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 11:28 AM

Amon also gives a whole lot more EXP, it's just no longer a free OCA on a wheelchair, entirely harmless.

 

All MvPs had their rewards boosted since they're harder now. There's not much point in having a dozen of MvPs that die to one arrow storm and give no EXP, is there?

 

 

Intention is to make killing MvPs for EXP relevant, so it isn't all about mashing Eden Quests up to 175, which promotes ET parties in turn.

 

Firstly, almost no-one cares about boosted EXP on MVPs because the old ones you killed at lower levels can't be done with crap gear anymore when it's just quicker to do Eden quests in your level range.  Which I seem to remember was the stance taken on launch "we want to remove the MVP grind to max level" now you've done a 180 and want people to go back to grinding MVPs instead.

 

Secondly, why would anyone bother with ET at the current rate you're buffing MVPs in all kind of retarded manner with no documentation of changes



#13 Terpsichore

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 11:53 AM

The old MvPs gave EXP of a few normal mobs so there was no point in even searching for them or bothering with abra, even low level Eden quests give more EXP. One example would be Orc Hero, which gave 53k base and 48k job exp, now it gives 789k base and 695k job.

As for no one caring about them, that's not the feedback I've been getting.

 

The stance was to create other perfectly viable ways, which was accomplished. Most MvPs not being appealing at all EXP-wise was an issue constantly brought up since beta and it makes sense to make killing them actually relevant.

All I'm trying to do is to add more options and make content more useful, making endgame stuff more challenging is also a part of it since the 175 cap changed many things and trivialized most of content.

 

 

Also, there's been multiple (not really geared or prepared) ET parties that made it to up to Ifrit without any issues and got a nice amount of EXP and loot from it. I'm actually paying attention to how thinks work out and adjust them accordingly, lack of suggestions isn't helping much since I'm left with "please make this better" in my hands with nobody to actually help with brainstorming. Passive-aggressive attitude doesn't help either, I'm not trying to antagonize anyone.



#14 Neri

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 12:09 PM

Disagree on the first point, since some MVPs are not killed for EXP purposes alone and the fact that Eden quests are still easier and more effective to do.

 

But all of that still doesn't change the fact that you randomly change things with no warning, documentation or properly explained reasons for doing it, then expect the player base to discover what random thing you changed this time.  The customisation is getting out of hand in all areas of the server, not just monsters, all in the name of "balance".  Also agree with the sentiments echoed earlier, it's not challenging anymore, just annoying.


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#15 Terpsichore

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 12:14 PM

Which will be different from now on as I already stated in other threads.

 

Actual feedback on what exactly is bad would be welcome though.



#16 Neri

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 12:31 PM

I've given you tons of feedback on what I think is bad through IRC.  Maybe a better idea would be to actually discuss the changes with people first before going in hamfisted and changing everything that you alone think needs balancing then realising it was probably a bad idea and having to change it again.  It would be fine if we had a regular weekly maintenance even just for database changes and no bugfixes, but with the current schedule we're stuck with the random change you make for weeks with no prior warning until it gets pointed out that maybe the change was a bad idea.

 

Your random changes with no warning have the effect of antagonising people as evidenced by the multiple threads and posts on this issue.  Perhaps a good start would be documenting the actual changes you've made so far, which probably should have been kept in a list of customisations you've made.


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#17 Terpsichore

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 12:45 PM

I'm waiting for Byte get Wiki in shape so I can make a list of all the changes.



#18 Neri

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 12:56 PM

A thread in Server Information would probably suffice until then



#19 alchefuck

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 02:59 PM

In addition to what I already said into the other thread, since now it's stated to have been changed intentionally, I would like to add few considerations.

 



and let's face it, instance cooldown bug is widely abused to farm OCAs, MvP itself uses low level skills so you don't need amazing gear to deal with it.

Lost Dragon and Hazy Forest instance: this instance is made for level 99 characters. A party of 5~6 level 99 characters should be able to handle the instance and Lost Dragon. I challenge the Admin/GM team to party up with legit characters of level 99 and legit gears (no high end gears, use the ones newcomers could get ... as common players) ending the instance. Yesterday, in a party of 2 level 175 Rangers full buffed (Unlimit, Full Throttle, Aspersio and other minor buffs) and decently geared, I failed killing Lost Dragon; almost there for 5 times (best result was 90k HP left), but anytime he full healed in around 7 seconds and used one-shotting long range skills, not to mention a valuable EQ.

Terpsichore (but also other Admin team members): What cooldown bug (I didn't knew about any)? If it's a bug why has not been fixed? If you stated a bug cannot be fixed, quickly or at all, and it causes an item drop abuse (see OCA) why don't keep things simple and remove that item till bug fix (Lost Dragon to no longer drop OCA)? Once again just a few have knowledge about bugs, once again they abused it anytime, once again the same persons got an unfair advantage over the fair players even if Admins/GMs knows about such abuses/bugs. I must seem very harsh, but cannot be differently.

 



OGH mvps got definitely buffed. Spamming all kinds of crazy shit now, last one was kinda harmless for our party, first one spams stone screen, sp gone, silence and 3rd class skills. its still clearable if you KNOW what is coming.

Old Glast Heim instance: this instance is made for endgame gears (Temporal Boots). Cause of lack on testing - I suppose - on how long would need get a pair of boots and realizing just few guilds (read: guilds ... and this makes a huge difference balancing PvP and GvG) got already Final Enchant Temporal Boots you decided to apply two "fixes": quadruple(?) the ingredients amount needed for the gear (and this could even be a valuable solution), not happy you buffed the MvP - as Inzanity said on the quote above - making Root of Corruption very hard and Amdarais impossible to nuke (even if in this case, offense not intended, I would consider this decision an opprobium, abominations).

 

To what result heads picking such decisions in a global point of view and long range in time terms? Game is not balanced. Who already got Mora Sets and Temporal Boots will lead PvM and reach a great advantage in the PvP/GvG scenario.

Newcomers will be not allowed to get Mora Sets till level 175 (while they are supposed to from level 99), unless they are part of a guild of at least 15 active members, or just will have to level up spiting blood wearing sh*t that's usually sold to NPC. This don't promotes server growt: why a newcomer should play here if he can't reach basic and must needed steps like Hazy Forest instance and Mora Gears quest? To be killed in no time in PvP from whom got those gears already? To spot everytime MvP tombs he's not even able to nuke? To sit in town watching others having fun while he cannot even enjoy 50% of the game not to mention your unique releases (Nightmare Dungeons, Verus, Bifrost Tower, etc)? Newcomers will not join, and if they do they will quit in no time, realizing the gap between them and already geared players. A healty server needs newcomers to stay up, give PvM a meaning, avoid economy stagnation. Said this: make your considerations. Newcomers parenthesis closed.

About Temporal Boots (but also long term gears like Enchanted Variants, Valkyrie gears, Ifrit gears, Diabolus sets, etc). As said earlier: if you had just increased the amount of ingredients needed would even be ok ... just more time needed to acquire the item. But no: that's not enough. Let's make something better! Impossible MvPs so almost nobody can end the instance and acquire Temporal Boots! (italic part have to be meant as sarcastic). So: some guild got his members with Final Enchants Temporal Boots, they will have a great advantage (for obvious reasons) and now what I have to do? I joined 2 weeks ago and I want a pair of those boots; I don't want to buy it from someone, I want to get it by myself. I don't want to see people dealing 3x dmg than me just because you changed idea, you had no guts to wipe that gears (nor refund the ingredients spent) or you didnt' expected to go this way. I bought my Mora Set when it costed 20 coins per piece, three days later you changed back to 10. You are doing very bad things (<- self-manner enabled); allow me to make a similar example: "The admin team thinks 0.5% MvP card drop is reasonable for this server"; after stating there's 20 MvP cards around, acquired in no time, "We are sorry, but MvP card drop will be decreased to 0.01%, MvP will now instant kill you on sight. We are sure the community will understand" ... not even wiping those cards. This is how you are acting.

Do you find it balanced and equal? I don't.

 

To conclude ... I think you are developing the server just ideally (read: teorically, without the pragmatism of a real test) without any beta-test on localhost/beta-server; if you had tested the quality and balance of your changes, before implementing it directly, you would agree with most opinions players are givin into this thread. You can't play with server scripts and settings as it was a permanent beta-server. A good server needs a stable and preset project, heading to a clear goal, that have to be developed carefully, tested in beta and, just once balanced properly for a long term server, implemented/released. And I'm not talking about instances and new field and dungeons, but game mechanics that concern players interactions. Minor fixes are fine but I just states a totally messed balance, especially related to PvP and GvG scenario (I'm sure once WoE and PvP really starts my thoughts will be confirmed with no doubts).


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#20 Lyka

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 03:14 PM

Stop making shit up. Costs were not "Quadrupled". The change means that people won't have Coagulated Spells piling up in storage unused like before the change. You can still get more than enough Spells to enchant what few boots you manage to convert.

 

*Unless you are a lucky fuck and manage to +7 and succeed at every enchant all the time.

 

**Which I am not, where's my final enchant booties ;_;


Edited by Lyka, 05 February 2015 - 03:18 PM.



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