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Updating 1st and 2nd class skills


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#1 Salad

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 03:19 AM

From what I understand, Renewal did a large, blanket fixed cast time change on most existing skills and only specifically balanced certain obvious ones (Zen, Asura Strike, Acid Demonstration afaik). This left some  previous cool 1st class and cool 2nd/Trans skills completely unusable. This topic is intended for players to suggest quality of life changes or otherwise changes to skills that  either lost nuances or are a total joke now. I think giving back some classes their old tools will make toning down problematic 3rd class skills easier, as they're not only spamming that 1 button and have something to mix in. This will also allign closer to jRO's version of Renewal. I'll start with my own suggestions, with ** Indicating priority changes. I can only list the skills and classes I actually play, so please pitch in!

 

Swordsman

 

**Magnum Break

  • CURRENT:  - 20% Fire Damage endow portion can miss now.  Endow bonus misses on Ghost 3/4, so not sure if it's actually Fire Property. 2 Second Global Cast Delay.
  • SUGGESTION: Change back to 10 seconds additional 20% Fire Property "Seeking Attack"damage. It was useful for hitting high-flee targets to status or knock out of cloaking previously.

I think the skill used to have no skill delay outside of animation so it was chainable into another skill if danced. Not sure on this, but would make it more desireable, there is no 3rd party garbage on this server so it feels more like a skill-cap change than something exploitable.

 

Thief

 

**Envenom

  • CURRENT: Entire skill can miss against flee.
  • SUGGESTION: Re-implement "Seeking Attack" portion, bonus damage from Envenom now ignores flee again. The RMS description is accurate to how it's worked until Renewal: http://ratemyserver....k_search=Search .

Pre-Renewal private servers nowadays are bugged to have the renewal version of this skill, it ignored Flee on officials and private servers before this. This will make it useful as a solid on-demand knockback skill coupled with Poisonous Toad card for utility, and inflicting status.

 

Acolyte

 

Warp Portal (brought up here: http://leika-ro.net/...ge-2#entry6758)

  • CURRENT: Cannot memo field maps too far from a town. I remember it was ~2 maps but feels like more in some regions.
  • SUGGESTION: Loosen restrictions on field map memos. I think the official restrictions feel pretty limiting, especially on a server with a Warper. No MvP field maps obviously, but it would be convenient to be able to memo New World maps, for example.

Monk

 

I haven't actually made one here, so no specifics, but from what I've read, potential things to look into: Spirit Spheres don't do Seeking Damage/flee piercing damage, and Occult Impact/Throw Spirit Sphere are usless. I think the Champion-unique Combo skills also might want a boost?

 

Archer

 

**Charge Arrow/Arrow Repel

  • CURRENT: 1.5 Second Fixed Cast time. I can't see any reason to EVER hotkey this skill now. Phantasmic Arrow completely replaces it now, but it has half the knock-back. Performers get screwed on this one more I think.
  • SUGGESTION: Remove cast time or change to Variable cast time. It'd have to have a low cast to be usable again (0.5 seconds?), but preferably Instant with 150 dex like before. This lines up with jRO Renewal.

Given how many gap closers and strong ranged skills 3rd classes have, I don't think a spammable single target 6 cell knockback is broken. I've never seen people complain about it Pre-Renewal as strong as it was.

 

Hunter

 

Falcon Mastery

  • CURRENT: Passive
  • SUGGESTION: Change to Active, summons Falcon as counter-part to Warg Mastery. Similar to Leika's Mado Gear License change. Would make Falcon skills an actual tree again as a Ranger and enable more frequent Detecting.

Ideally you'd be able to swap between Falcon/Warg without having to put away either. EX: Warg out->Falcon Mastery->No warg, Falcon out->Warg Mastery->No falcon, Warg out

 

Ankle Snare

  • CURRENT: Duration time gets EATEN with Renewal AGI/Boss Protocol penalty.
  • SUGGESTION: Would like a more reasonable minimum duration on bosses, like 1-2 seconds. As it is right now it's practically impossible to even try to Aimed Bolt a snared Boss monster. Feels crappy to have to resort to Arrow Storm for everything.

SPLASH TRAPS

  • I'd like to see the goofy multiplicative damage with single celling mobs back. I think traps might divide damage here depending on number of mobs, and for obvious reasons with Renewal trap damage, but if looked into and balanced would make old trapping tactics rewarding/beautifully stupid with effort and time again. It feels like traps are much simpler with a lower potential right now.
  • Remove any cast times on Traps, lower damage if neccessary imo.

 

 

Sniper

 

**Sharpshooting

  • CURRENT:1 Second Fixed Cast time + 1 Second Variable Cast time. Almost made me uninstall the server after using for the first time.
  • SUGGESTION: Same with Charge Arrow. Either remove cast time entirely or more preferably allow 150 dex to cast instantly again. Can change to a short variable time (0.5 Seconds base or lower?) but I think Arrow Storm would probably outclass it in all situations if not instant. Will allow synergy between Sniper/Ranger and Bards again, and is considerably less braindead than Arrow Storm. I can see it outclassing Arrow Storm under bragi with instant cast, which is a good thing.

Maybe an easier way to balance is Instant Cast if using Falcon? No matter what is done this isn't a server with +9 KvM bows and no-delay horseshit so I can't see how Sharpshooting is abusable compared to 3rd class skills.

 

Falcon Assault

  • CURRENT: 1.5 second Fixed Cast Time, RMS says 0.5 Fixed 0.5 Variable.
  • SUGGESTION: Change cast time similar to Charge Arrow. Slight damage increase would be nice to make it potentially useful under Bragi compared to Warg Strike. Falcons go the full 14 cells + snipeable cells so it will have potential usage over a Warg's brute strength. And make it AoE like Blitz Beat.

I have many fond memories of erasing 1 vit creators in BGS 2.0 and even WoE at max screen instantly with bragi FA. It's not necessary but would be comforting to have and could give Rangers more nuance.

 

 

I tried to list all the things I've noticed and would like changed. I don't play Mages at all so there's probably much needed input there. A lot of these changes would help players who feel alienated by Renewal's treatment of their class.


Edited by Salad, 19 March 2015 - 03:27 AM.


#2 Aina

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 05:19 PM

I think that the overall problem is how Gravity designed the 3rd classes. They designed their skills to pretty much replace EVERYTHING that 1st and 2nd have with more damage and AoE, I think the only ones that are not in this list are Asura and Spiral Pierce, the rest I believe that are all made irrelevant(in terms of damage pretty much).

While would be nice have more skills to use, I think that will be really hard make every skill useful/relevant. But if we focus on some easy QoL changes that can help the class and its not hard to pull of(not recoding the whole skill), might be good.

 

Nice suggestion.


Edited by Aina, 19 March 2015 - 05:20 PM.


#3 Sky

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 05:59 PM

Sharp shooting suggestion, I like it!  Maybe fix traps from always moving left when using arrow shower and allow trap stacking again?  Traps like blast mine and land mine only do damage to all mobs if all mobs are on the same cell, it's kind of silly...  /swt



#4 Arn

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 08:29 PM

Like Aina said, the way Gravity designed 3rd classes makes pretty much non suportive skills from previous classes not really useful, even more now that the cast formula changed. The only thing it really shouldn've changed were the traps.

 

Warg is better than Falcon in pretty much everything, it can outdamage the Falcon easy, there's Warg Ride and you can use some skills while riding too, I see no use in reverting Falcon.



#5 Scias

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 11:32 AM

I remember those days when envenom could be trusted when your normal attacks were missing. It's a cool mechanic. Grimtooth is working well atm, powerful enough to be useful and not too powerful (not as powerful as spinning)



#6 Terpsichore

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 03:28 PM

I'm going to remove fixed cast times from charge arrow, sharp shooting and falcon assault for now.

#7 Salad

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 07:01 PM

I'm going to remove fixed cast times from charge arrow, sharp shooting and falcon assault for now.

I haven't tested out Falcon Assault yet because it needs to be under bragi, but Sharpshooting is definitely more than useable now. If something like Sound Amplifier stacks additively with Bragi then instant cast Sharpshooting looks like it will be more DPS than Arrow Storm which makes a lot more sense given it needs a party setup.

 

The patchnotes for Charge Arrow say "Subject to change" so I assume that means more input was welcome. It can actually be hotkeyed now but it's still rather clunky to use. Lowering the cast time to at least that of Sharpshooting right now (0.5s) would help a lot. At the moment it doesn't feel like (bow) rangers can really reasonably solo past a certain point without Unlimit + Arrow Storm on cooldown which feels really, really bad. Unlimit is a headache to think about but it feels worse when I seem to have to resort to that since pre-existing tools are poopy.

It would be great if the performer skills Musical Strike/Arrow Slinging and Arrow Vulcan could be looked into also, I recall they had long fixed cast times.



#8 annaquin

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 03:22 AM

One way to achieve balance is consistency ...

 

You should define a formula of balance and compound all skill into it.

 

Example 

Cool Down x Cast Time x Skill Modifier % x Sub Stat x Restricted condition x SP x Max Dmg Output x Reach Distance x AOE = Constant

 

So once all skill fit in it, you won't have any problem to tune around .. and it will solve you a lot of headache.



#9 annaquin

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 04:33 PM

BTW most of skill 2-1 and 2-2 aren't even renewal 

 

http://forums.irowik...ead.php?t=53487

 

I just tested Fire Pillar and Sight Blaster , you are still on pre balance patch .



#10 Terpsichore

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 04:53 PM

Care to elaborate?

#11 annaquin

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 09:08 PM

O_o I even posted the link to help you fix it.. what elaboration you need ?

 

Fire pillar is 7x7 up till lvl 5 and 5x5 from 6-10, and doesn't consume blue gem anymore.

 

https://code.google....ill_unit_db.txt

 

What version of rathena did you pick ?



#12 Terpsichore

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 10:32 PM

That's a rather old post and iRO Wiki's page doesn't mention anything of the sort even though it was updated in 2013.

Digging around iRO forums I found that it indeed no longer costs a gemstone (which I fixed and you can cast it freely now) but I'm not able to find anything regarding level 1-5 area, 6-10 is correctly 5x5 and 1-5 is 3x3 right now.

We're using heavily tweaked Hercules.

#13 annaquin

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 09:33 AM

I won't test all the skill of all others class 2-1 and 2-2...

But Frost Nova is wrong too...

 

Where did you get your info .. it looks like you are in pre renewal state for all 2nd class skill and applied only renewal effect on them ( fixed cast and variable cast )

You are outdated from even 2008  ??? O_O ???

http://forums.irowik...ead.php?t=20283

 

 

FP AOE : 7x7 1-5 , 5x5 6-10, lvl 10 is instant cast, reuse delay is 1sec, 2 sec forced immobile at lvl 10

Blaster hit from 5x5 to 3x3 , you can't walk nearby monster with triggering it.

Frost Nova works like Bowling bash as long as there is monster chained it will continue boucing up to 13x13 area and it's spammable

Thunder Storm has higher dmg modifier %

 

Hold one a second !!!

Why all those skill are totaly wrong in first place, you don't even have an account on kRO to begin with or what ? It take me 5 sec to find out all those skill were wrongly implemented.

 

I just checked Hercules forum.. they are rebalancing changes of rathena into it when they can ( some skill can't even be fixed .. SOOO plant can provide infinite auto cast )

 

You didn't dig  that deep :/

Since 2008 Fire Pillar Area is reduced at 5x5 above level 5 .. which mean 7x7 1-5 an after 5x5... 

The triggering area remain 3x3 however.

 

 

What do you mean about heavily tweaked Hercules ? You are a developpers or a scripters ?



#14 Terpsichore

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 06:31 PM

Most of the changes from that list are implemented, it's just a couple of specific skills. I adjusted level 1-5 Fire Pillar range by the way.

As to why they are wrong, I assume that not many in rA and Hercules communities care enough and to be honest players don't either, you're the first one to bring up those issues here, most just care about 3rd job skills, which is normal, being a renewal server and all.

I do have a kRO account but I don't have time to level characters since Sakray forces you to level up normally since a long time.

And yes, we had to fix and adjust many many skills and formulas before open beta phase since most were wrong or just outright didn't work.

#15 annaquin

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 12:25 PM

woah , I didn't expect you fix that fast ( that's great  )

 

In that case  add the auto cast part missing , same as gravity field. And try to fix the stack part, it looks like when I put Fire Pillar with another one, and monster trigger both , only 1 FP is dmging.

 

 

On kRO you see the combo GF+Eraser in wOE or FP + Eraser

 

You should follow Warp Portal or iROwiki kRO new ( now that since January they get back on the normal format of maintenance )

There is also the blog :

http://ragnarokevo.b...changes_27.html


Edited by annaquin, 30 April 2015 - 01:59 PM.


#16 Salad

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 07:07 PM

woah , I didn't expect you fix that fast ( that's great  )

 

In that case  add the auto cast part missing , same as gravity field. And try to fix the stack part, it looks like when I put Fire Pillar with another one, and monster trigger both , only 1 FP is dmging.

 

 

On kRO you see the combo GF+Eraser in wOE or FP + Eraser

 

You should follow Warp Portal or iROwiki kRO new ( now that since January they get back on the normal format of maintenance )

There is also the blog :

http://ragnarokevo.b...changes_27.html

 

Compilation of changes of Private Server

 

I'm sorry

 

 

What



#17 annaquin

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Posted 01 May 2015 - 11:33 PM

Sight Blaster isn't fixed , the ball turn 3x3 around the caster , and hit monster entering in 3x3 from 5x5 zone. 

Before the fix, monster were entering cell 3x3 without been repelled fast enought.

Now the zone is 5x5 where it shouldn't and are hit even at 5x5 where they should only be hit 3x3.

 

Did my explanation earlie was wrong...



#18 Terpsichore

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Posted 02 May 2015 - 12:20 AM

Right now it works like this:

 

The activation area is correctly 3x3, meaning target has to step right next to you, this makes the skill pretty useless.

 

Knockback is 4 cells.



#19 Salad

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Posted 16 May 2015 - 10:48 PM

So I noticed Charge Arrow and Sharpshooting have a fixed cast time again. I'm not opposed to changes as this is already customized for renewal to begin with but this was a stealth change. Are these types of changes going to be in the upcoming patch notes?

EDIT: Seems Falcon is also affected


Edited by Salad, 16 May 2015 - 10:52 PM.


#20 Terpsichore

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Posted 16 May 2015 - 11:28 PM

Uuh, those skills don't have any fixed cast time.


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