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Bwing IN WOE


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#1 kolebludd

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Posted 17 January 2016 - 01:01 AM

I would just like to point out Butterfly wing in WOE zones, needs to be removed. Woe is not only a tactics and teamwork thing. It is a resource thing. To be able to simply wing out to save foods/pots is simply put .... stupid.


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#2 Salad

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Posted 17 January 2016 - 01:26 AM

This has already been discussed multiple times over the past few months. When Awesome Police + Idlemasters held castle we agreed that Butterfly Wings were stupid. There is an obvious reason why they are disabled in the PvP room, the same should go for WoE. It skews a numbers advantage too heavily, and having more numbers is supposed to be balanced out by the fact that you are spending more supplies - you are circumventing 90% of consumable cost by butterfly winging and it takes 10 seconds to come back to where you were with flags.



#3 Terpsichore

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Posted 17 January 2016 - 02:26 AM

Many suggested adding a cooldown to flag teleport as well.



#4 Donker

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Posted 17 January 2016 - 09:55 AM

Instead of crying about stupid things like butterfly wings what about buffing other classes? Because the only classes you see in WoE are Suras and Shadow Chasers, if you don't have those 2 classes in your team you will never be able to destroyed 1st barricade.
I wonder why Neryth didn't use the GX this last WoE, oh wait maybe i know? Ah yeah the nerf on the knit cap=GX sucks again.
Let's all reroll to Suras (always said and i will never change my idea about sura being the most retarded class ever made) and let's enjoy snapping around the castle and hoping to get people stunned with cursed circle.



#5 Salad

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Posted 17 January 2016 - 11:45 AM

donker we destroyed first barricades with 1 sura and no shadow chaser are you ok dude



#6 Hammertime

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Posted 17 January 2016 - 01:06 PM

Surely is the bwing that made the difference.... We didn't even use bwing this much this WoE I'm not sure what you are about now(tunnel vision). U keep coming back to this whenever you lose. Add cooldown to the flag/Warper is a better solution. Either way when you force some1 to bwing it is almost the same as you have killed him(the difference being he has to reuse his +20 foods which is minimal time). You lose 10-15 seconds (probably even more) when u bwing when u want to rebuff. I don't want to cut replays by logging out when I have to go back to base to use link/fcp or whatever buff you need to function properly in WoE.



#7 Donker

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Posted 17 January 2016 - 02:16 PM

donker we destroyed first barricades with 1 sura and no shadow chaser are you ok dude

Oh yeah sorry you destroyed 1st barricade...and then what happened?



#8 kolebludd

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 02:13 AM

Im not stating that Bwing's would make the difference i'm saying if you get debuffed you can bwing away and return without any resource lost. if you get debuffed you should be debuffed, Call for a dispel, get your gen to FCP you, heaven forbid you need a linker. If you have to relog to get your buffs back tough cookies you are the ones sacrificing 10-15secs that you could have just toughed it out or actually *surprise* depend on other guild mate's if you need link/fcp/buffs just to WOE then you need to get people on those classes. Those things are not needs they are wants and if you want them have ppl available to do it instead of using a 300gp item to negate any and all effective damage and disable against you. Welcome to WOE! Did you ever have to play on a server where you needed a dedicated warper to make sure there were warps, buffs ,and heals in town? This is a exploit you are using this 300gp item to negate mistakes, or great play, or the abilities of another class while maintaining a resource that should be expended for the same reasons. Lastly your replays do not affect WOE, you having to spend more time editing is your problem not mine or the rest of the servers.


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#9 Syncope

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 02:38 AM

Basically, this guy ^ is suggesting that Terp should increase bwing price.



#10 Neryth

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 04:12 AM

Kole's posts perfectly sum up why Butterfly Wings should have been disabled in WoE a long time ago. AoR was taking a massive shit on WRP months back with the exact same tactic. I'm not expecting anyone from WRP to verify this seeing as how you guys seem to have selective brain damage/memory loss and just love an opportunity to play the victim in public.

 

It's already a stretch that we'll continue to attend WoE while outnumbered almost 2:1. We even broke alliance with Reviled (at least partly for WoE balance), and they completely quit the server immediately afterwards like the spoiled children they are, probably crying for Terpsichore to implement more of the PvM/balance changes they want for easier access to their sick endgame gear. If you idiots are going to defend the infinite supply of get-out-of-jail free cards that heavily favor defenders on top of running that many players, you can definitely expect to sit alone in the castle while we do our Saturday instance run early instead.

 

I mean, we only started WoEing as a guild (and eventually alliance) because Terp asked us to attend for the sake of providing competition. This was back when WoE was completely dead because AoR killed it with their massive alliance, and you quit the server when you couldn't do shit all. Since you seem more than happy to be the ones to kill it this time (while also claiming it's the only thing you care about), you can enjoy your Saturdays jerking off into the pits around the Emperium/Guardian Stones. I guess a bunch of you are running that sick grf though, so you're about as likely to ejaculate on the castle walls instead.

 

tl;dr: Starting now, you can use those bwings to get back to town more quickly after your weekly AFK-in-castle sessions instead of using them to save your buffs.

 

P.S.: That's a nice influx of players you got right before WoE. Did you get yourselves banned on some shit server somewhere?


Edited by Neryth, 18 January 2016 - 04:28 AM.


#11 Hammertime

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 04:28 PM

First it's gnna be Bwing then something else why you lost. How about you recruit people or reroll classes and get better (recruit Warrage and his peoples?). Note also the population has increased recruit some of them? Also it has been proven by time that no guild can ever keep their activity up every WoE capitalize on that? No1 is forcing you to WoE u can also give up if you want. And here i thought you guys were maturing when i saw the WoE thread, but you go back to whining about everyones day 1 item. 


Edited by Hammertime, 18 January 2016 - 04:32 PM.


#12 Syncope

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 04:39 PM

@Neryth

How are we the ones playing victim in public when you're the one (not your entire guild cause I'm sure some of them are fine with it) crying about a millennium old item. Seems like you contradict your "claims" again. AoR did dominate back then but no one from our guild complained about bwing so no one really knows what you're talking about.

But it's okay, we've discussed this amongst our guild members and not a single person has a problem with "nerfing" bwing. We find it pretty funny actually. You're being over-dramatic about this and only making it hard for yourself.

#13 Neri

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 07:43 PM

Things to address with a WoE population this size:

 

-Disable Nurse for 150+ chars during WoE so it forces people to use inns

-Disable BWings inside castles

-Remove the WoE Board warp straight to castle so you have to actually dual client a warper

-Add a cooldown to flag-in to castle

-Remove the retarded Terp HP buffs to cades/guardian stones/emperium that she implemented when there was actually a WoE population of more than 7/8? vs 13/14?

 

Oh and actually have a castle that has a unique layout and not the generic shit Rachel one before Gravity got lazy


Edited by Neri, 18 January 2016 - 07:45 PM.


#14 Neryth

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 08:24 PM

@Hammer, First off, nobody in either of our guilds cares about WoE enough to desperately recruit players right out of Prontera or try to schmooze up to people on the forums. We aren't going to play with some shitty and technically illegal grf to make things like status/etc. more visible and the map easier to navigate, or try to change our roster to include 5 Suras and 3 Chasers to take advantage of the fact that it's small scale WoE and Manhole is bugged.

 

The reason why is most of our players care more about playing the other 99.5% of the game. You're right though, we're free to quit WoE, the same way you are free to continue to obsess over WoE and try to run fool-proof rosters abusing as much broken shit as possible for the sake of winning. You're also free to try to suck up as many players as possible, spread your shitty exii.grf around to those who want it, and continue crying about changes to obviously and objectively imbalanced shit that only exists because of server customization (Iron Nails LOL) or WoE SE being meant for massive populations (Butterfly Wings). That same freedom also extends to bringing up irrelevant talking points that completely ignore the reason for something being imbalanced to begin with (lol day1 item, w a t).

 

 

@Syncope, as usual, your selective brain damage & memory loss is kicking in--this time in combination with your non-existent reading comprehension. Your lack of any sense of objectivity whatsoever combined with your juvenile ego-centrism naturally leads to you interpreting any balance change or discussion as an attempt to target you in WoE. What you are crying about is people actually trying to discuss server balance on an objective basis. You feel the need to interject with your silly little shitposts at every opportunity, detracting from the existence of every thread with any discussion in them (that isn't to your exclusive advantage).

 

I'm not going to fault your guild for quitting back then, because AoR had a massive numbers advantage, defender flag advantage, and was also using Butterfly Wings on their 2-3 instant cast Geneticists to save foods and save time so they could immediately flag back in and flank you again. Basically, they had a constant supply advantage that only grew over time because they had easy access to WoE pots, and they had the luxury of being able to use Butterfly Wing because flags get them back to where they want to be in seconds. That all sounds strangely familiar, doesn't it? Given those circumstances, you bailed the fuck out, and given those circumstances, we too are going to bail the fuck out. We have even less reason than you for attending. WoE is neither fun nor suspenseful in the current conditions, and we're done with the old Terp-assigned-task of creating competition unless things improve (like a castle that isn't garbage, bwings being disabled, Emp not having 1700 HP, etc.).

 

I already knew before this topic was even posted that you and your guild members would "give up" bwings, because everyone on the server who's stepped into WoE knows their impact. It's even indefensible to the point that even YOU would eventually realize how stupid you look trying to defend it. As it turns out though, you and Hammer are still loathe to admit it and are suffering from some serious cognitive dissonance. What a surprise!

 

I'd expect two weeks for Butterfly Wings to get changed, the same way it took two weeks for an Iron Nails fix. Maybe we'll WoE then.


Edited by Neryth, 18 January 2016 - 08:37 PM.


#15 Syncope

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 10:32 PM

You asked for Iron Nail nerf. You got it. Now you're asking for Butterfly Wing to be disabled and claim that I actually contest your request? You're really retarded and you're actually the one who has selective brain damage - On my previous post, I just mentioned that our guild has no problem about disabling bwing and we DISCUSSED it. Seems like a "non existent reading comprehension" on your part.

And btw, I already DISCUSSED this with Terp as well so she knows what's going on. So again, stop being retarded.

L o l. You gave bwing that much thought (going back to AoR days)? When it never even crossed our minds that it's a contributing factor to AoR's dominance back then or perhaps our dominance now. It's a convenience yes, but it was never a big deal for us even when you had the castle. Now that you haven't touched the emperium for MONTHS, you suddenly go nuts. Which reminds me that, we didn't even have the NPC Warper back when you guys had the castle yet we didn't say shit.

You talk so much about balance and having discussion on nerfing this and that YET you lied about reporting the knit cap crystallize bug and told me "Terp is already aware of it". So I asked Terp if you mentioned it to her and she said nope, not a word. Seems like you planned on further bug abuse.

#16 Neryth

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 12:03 AM

Again, you're set on demonstrating that you hold the exact same power of reading comprehension as a paperweight. I didn't claim that you are contesting it, but Hammer sure was, and using the most feeble reasoning to top it off. Scroll up and try again or take your hands off the keyboard and do something more constructive with them instead. Here's a hint: the title of the thread. If you have nothing to contribute, then don't post your disingenuous garbage. "lol dis guy saying increase bwing price xD"

 

Also, on the Iron Nails nerf, we didn't even get the change we wanted which is disabling its interaction with TC/GoH and leaving the DEF ignore on everything else. Instead, YOU guys crying about the well-deserved nerf left us with the shitty compromise of it being 50% DEF ignore instead.

 

There's more I could say right here, but I'll just leave it at that for "personal reasons".

 

Yes, Syncope, we did realize even back then that Butterfly Wings being enabled in WoE is a complete joke. It doesn't take much thought (though maybe more than you're capable of) to figure that out. You would've realized the same thing if your brain was turned on or focused more on WoE and less on begging for gemstone zeny after WoE has already started. It's nice to see that you were and still are too stupid to even identify it as a problem. You and your guild members have been desperately defending it and clinging to it for weeks already, so yeah, it HAS been discussed plenty by now. Let's not pretend it's a new topic.

 

Honestly, your skull is so fucking thick that your brain must reside elsewhere if it exists at all. The reason Butterfly Wings weren't a problem for you when we were holding the castle was because nobody on our side fucking used them, you moron. If you're wondering why that is, scroll up, again. 

 

If we REALLY wanted to abuse Crystallize being on Knit Hat, I'm sorry to tell you this but your entire guild would've be Crystallized by much larger AoEs, much more often. Even after getting dumpstered by it multiple times that WoE (and your guild members spending time testing it right after), it seems like you still don't know how it works and how to best exploit it. If we were SERIOUS about using every resource available, we would've had it on more than a single character and just used it to completely shit on both WRP and Reviled. Rolling Cutter is actually not even close to the best way of utilizing it but I guess since we didn't demonstrate it in its most broken fashion, you're too stupid to realize that it could've been much, much worse. The same way you caught onto Iron Nails late and only used SD after getting nearly 100% wiped by it, you're also late to this. On a final note about "exploiting" it, we could've easily claimed ignorance about it and said nothing at all while abusing it on multiple characters to completely shitstomp both WRP and Reviled that WoE.

 

Instead, Salad indicated to Terpsichore that the Knit Hat of Raging Winter was broken literally the night we discovered it, less than 20 minutes after the fact. We were fully expecting it to be fixed before WoE. If Terp says it wasn't mentioned to her, you can ask her to check her log. That she told you otherwise is hilarious.


Edited by Neryth, 19 January 2016 - 12:05 AM.


#17 Scias

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 12:44 AM

The intensity of my lack of opinion on this subject is near-overwhelming.
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#18 FWQ943W09J5G0KERI

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 01:30 AM

My opinion is as follows: you have two options.

1: Disable it because it's stupid.

2: Enable it, but add a cool down that prevents people from re-entering the castle for a pretty long time after they Bwing out.

3: FULLY HEAL ALL PLAYERS WHO PROC BWINGS AND BUFF THEM VIA THE SYSTEM BECAUSE FUCK THE SYSTEM.



#19 Terpsichore

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 02:56 AM

I would appreciate if people stopped calling my name at every opportunity. The reason I get involved with the community is to have a good grasp on what's going on inside the game, from both observation and first-hand reports. It isn't so you guys can sling shit at each other while hiding behind the mommy-Terp meatshield and take things out of context.

I don't have the time to dredge shit right now so I'm replying to the only post that's clearly on-topic.

 

-Disable Nurse for 150+ chars during WoE so it forces people to use inns


Sounds reasonable, but this will affect both sides while defenders would suffer less since they usually have enough time to stack and recover behind barricades.

 

-Disable BWings inside castles


While this is an "official mechanic", I don't personally believe it has a place in small-scale WoEs like ours. So far we've had arguments that support their removal from WoE because it enables zerg "tactics", suicide diving while keeping buffs and consumables, making defense even easier, etc, but I haven't seen any counter-arguments other than "it's official" which doesn't really hold any value in this situation.
It is also true that this is only possible due to the unlimited flag teleports and I don't think most would mind suras BWinging out before their FC even connects to save buffs if people couldn't just heal up and teleport back into action instantly.

 

-Remove the WoE Board warp straight to castle so you have to actually dual client a warper


This was re-added to help attacking guilds get into action faster (actually proposed by the defending guild) and it made sense considering the defender's overwhelming advantage due to flag teleports.

 

-Add a cooldown to flag-in to castle


This will be done for sure but we need to figure out a resonable value. I would prefer to disable BWings myself though.

 

-Remove the retarded Terp HP buffs to cades/guardian stones/emperium that she implemented when there was actually a WoE population of more than 7/8? vs 13/14?


The "retarded buffs" were proposed by all active WoE guilds back in the times because stones and barricades were destroyed instantly, that's still the case for stones though and would be for undefended barricades as well, the actual increase isn't big either.
Emperium's HP is actually heavily nerfed, the default amount of HP you get per investment point is 50, here it is 10.

#20 kolebludd

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 06:03 AM

Thanks terp for bringing things back to where i would like to keep it. I dont mind keeping the nurse mechanic just because you have Full hp sp does not mean you have full cool downs or even time to buff if you dive right back in. Flag cool down i don't completely support that hey its defenders advantage take away the ability to instantly leave the battle field and you largely limit how quickly people can return. I disagree with the warp board removal as well. This is small scale WOE yes having a dedicated warper would make for an interesting set up but you also lose another person in a guild already under 20. As far as the HP buffs go on cades, I do not like the fact you can direct target heal the cade using ren if someone wants to put warmer and sanc on the cades thats fine b/c you can directly counter that with land protect or gambetien from a warlock. Just my 2 cents

 

-Disable Nurse for 150+ chars during WoE so it forces people to use inns


Sounds reasonable, but this will affect both sides while defenders would suffer less since they usually have enough time to stack and recover behind barricades.



-Disable BWings inside castles


While this is an "official mechanic", I don't personally believe it has a place in small-scale WoEs like ours. So far we've had arguments that support their removal from WoE because it enables zerg "tactics", suicide diving while keeping buffs and consumables, making defense even easier, etc, but I haven't seen any counter-arguments other than "it's official" which doesn't really hold any value in this situation.
It is also true that this is only possible due to the unlimited flag teleports and I don't think most would mind suras BWinging out before their FC even connects to save buffs if people couldn't just heal up and teleport back into action instantly.

 

-Remove the WoE Board warp straight to castle so you have to actually dual client a warper


This was re-added to help attacking guilds get into action faster (actually proposed by the defending guild) and it made sense considering the defender's overwhelming advantage due to flag teleports.

 

-Add a cooldown to flag-in to castle


This will be done for sure but we need to figure out a resonable value. I would prefer to disable BWings myself though.

 

-Remove the retarded Terp HP buffs to cades/guardian stones/emperium that she implemented when there was actually a WoE population of more than 7/8? vs 13/14?


The "retarded buffs" were proposed by all active WoE guilds back in the times because stones and barricades were destroyed instantly, that's still the case for stones though and would be for undefended barricades as well, the actual increase isn't big either.
Emperium's HP is actually heavily nerfed, the default amount of HP you get per investment point is 50, here it is 10.

 

 

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