15 replies to this topic

[Salad]

The most common thing to do for Leika MvPs, especially for higher end content is to have a dedicated Steel Body sura tank in a corner. After a certain content range, melee classes and builds are locked out of fighting MvPs outside of contributing with ranged skills. The argument is that in renewal, there's no reason to use anything to tank other than a Steel Body sura due to its 90% damage reduction. Unlike pre-renewal, DEF has diminishing returns, and FLEE is more or less non-existent due to Renewal mobs naturally having absurd DEX the further you progress in content. I am not saying it is impossible to tank MvPs or do content without Steel Body, but I do think Steel Body in its current form creates problems that adversely affects class balance and reduces options, due to content needing to be scaled and balanced around Steel Body so a Sura doesn't make everything effortless.

I would like to see, for example:

• Rune Knights be able to do something other than Dragon Breath and an occasional Crush Strike on party-oriented MvPs
• Thief classes to have a perk defensively from FLEE again
• Guillotine Cross and other melee classes to be able to fight high-end content outside of ranged skills
• Steel Body with a dual-client Sura not being the low effort answer to most content

The obvious solution is to address the problem and re-balance Steel Body and content damage. The issue is this would be one of the biggest changes in mechanics to the server, which is why I am making this topic to gather input and opinions from players.

 

Personally, I think reducing the DEX of level 140+ content makes sense as a start, as the common complaint I see from officials is that FLEE is pointless. I don't think fleeing some MvP attacks is a balance issue when most mobs have ways to pierce flee before Power Up to begin with.

 

 

Another topic of discussion would be mob AGI values and NPC Agi Up locking classes and builds out from content, especially high end. A 5% hit chance on classes only serves to make powerhouses like Asura Strike, Acid Demonstration and Dragon Breath more attractive, when they are already the hardest scaling skills of their respective classes.

[IronTears]

http://ratemyserver....em_db&comid=160

http://ratemyserver....&isearch=Search

 

would be a good start to  stack hit, im not too familiar with renewal mvps though.

 

as for flee, i dont think ive ever seen someone fleetank any mid or top tier mvp, sounds like nonsense to me.

 

 

steel body in itself is unreliable. if its down, even with no cast interruption, you can still easily be oneshot while recasting, or your paladin for that matter.

 

 

as for your arguments concerning GX etc, they are indeed known for abolute massive dps, however a lot of people sometimes forget why they get that.

a) an assassin isnt exactly squishy by nature. they have quite high base hp and innate defensive stats (flee, pdodge)

b) an assassin can reach x1000's of damage percents. This results in the highest dps ingame if they build full str and use 2 weapons. however, thats not the ideal build for all situations. for example you could go full dex and use a shield, containing a mummy/ancient mummy combo. this way im sure they would have at least 75% hit rate. as i said im not too familiar with renewal mvps so dont rip my head off if thats not the case. even if you build cunningly like that instead going for the oh so tempting brute dps, with all your damage incereases your dps should still be fairly good. ive never mvp'd with an assassin and a steel body tank though, the aggro might indeed be a problem there, but thats the steel bodys fault, thats where he falls off.

 

the limit of my attention span is reached, so ill leave it at that. just my 5 cents.

Edited by IronTears, 26 February 2016 - 06:31 PM.

[Vadertan]

Nerf Dark Claw.

[Salad]

http://ratemyserver....em_db&comid=160

http://ratemyserver....&isearch=Search

 

would be a good start to  stack hit, im not too familiar with renewal mvps though.

 

as for flee, i dont think ive ever seen someone fleetank any mid or top tier mvp, sounds like nonsense to me.

 

 

steel body in itself is unreliable. if its down, even with no cast interruption, you can still easily be oneshot while recasting, or your paladin for that matter.

 

 

as for your arguments concerning GX etc, they are indeed known for abolute massive dps, however a lot of people sometimes forget why they get that.

a) an assassin isnt exactly squishy by nature. they have quite high base hp and innate defensive stats (flee, pdodge)

b) an assassin can reach x1000's of damage percents. This results in the highest dps ingame if they build full str and use 2 weapons. however, thats not the ideal build for all situations. for example you could go full dex and use a shield, containing a mummy/ancient mummy combo. this way im sure they would have at least 75% hit rate. as i said im not too familiar with renewal mvps so dont rip my head off if thats not the case. even if you build cunningly like that instead going for the oh so tempting brute dps, with all your damage incereases your dps should still be fairly good. ive never mvp'd with an assassin and a steel body tank though, the aggro might indeed be a problem there, but thats the steel bodys fault, thats where he falls off.

 

the limit of my attention span is reached, so ill leave it at that. just my 5 cents.

I don't think you've spent enough time with Renewal or looked into mechanic changes to understand the topics at hand. The Ancient Mummy set can't be used by 2hand ranged characters and even with the set, you are looking at a 20% chance to hit with most skills that have hard cooldowns in Renewal. I'm also a bit worried if you are seriously suggesting a 0.01% Phreeoni Card in weapons to be able to hit MvPs in NPC AGI UP when with the Renewal formula, a single Phreeoni would likely still keep you at the minimum 5% chance to hit.

 

I would suggest looking into the Renewal stat formula and EDP changes, along with attempting higher end content with a (geared) Guillotine Cross before comments on that. We are on a Renewal server, this isn't trans. I am not saying Guillotine Cross is useless on this server. I am saying they are locked out of most of their capability in PvM from the end result of both Renewal and customs on Leika.

[Syncope]

 

http://ratemyserver....em_db&comid=160

http://ratemyserver....&isearch=Search

 

would be a good start to  stack hit, im not too familiar with renewal mvps though.

 

as for flee, i dont think ive ever seen someone fleetank any mid or top tier mvp, sounds like nonsense to me.

 

 

steel body in itself is unreliable. if its down, even with no cast interruption, you can still easily be oneshot while recasting, or your paladin for that matter.

 

 

as for your arguments concerning GX etc, they are indeed known for abolute massive dps, however a lot of people sometimes forget why they get that.

a) an assassin isnt exactly squishy by nature. they have quite high base hp and innate defensive stats (flee, pdodge)

b) an assassin can reach x1000's of damage percents. This results in the highest dps ingame if they build full str and use 2 weapons. however, thats not the ideal build for all situations. for example you could go full dex and use a shield, containing a mummy/ancient mummy combo. this way im sure they would have at least 75% hit rate. as i said im not too familiar with renewal mvps so dont rip my head off if thats not the case. even if you build cunningly like that instead going for the oh so tempting brute dps, with all your damage incereases your dps should still be fairly good. ive never mvp'd with an assassin and a steel body tank though, the aggro might indeed be a problem there, but thats the steel bodys fault, thats where he falls off.

 

the limit of my attention span is reached, so ill leave it at that. just my 5 cents.

I don't think you've spent enough time with Renewal or looked into mechanic changes to understand the topics at hand.

 

 

The only time I'll agree with Salad.

Edited by Syncope, 27 February 2016 - 02:52 AM.

[IronTears]

If its truly changed that much in those aspects i apologize for stealing your time.

[Psor]

The only time I'll agree with Salad.

Wedding when?

[Siobhan]

beep

[tokola]

Not all classes are supposed to be good at everything

[Neryth]

Not all classes are supposed to be good at everything

That's a very good argument for nerfing Steel Body.

[Gionelles]

     I'd like to agree that the 90% reduction with Steel Body as opposed to the 90 hard physical and magical defense in pre renewal has always bothered me as well. Honestly, hard defense as a mechanic has a lot of flaws, considering hard physical and magical defense can be combined with demi-human resists to make the geared players effective gods in WoE, somewhat limiting your offensive options. It also keeps less pro players from enjoying WoE since EVERYONE has to be geared with ridiculous defense to really enjoy the battle. However, the entire hard defense system also opens a massive playground for other classes to tank more specific enemies outside of WoE. Leveling tanks can be reserved for Lord Knights, Stalkers, Assassins Crosses, and Paladins alongside your suras. The fact that we have third classes just means we can tank higher end mobs.

I thus have a couple suggestions and points to make in light of Salad's very solid argument:

• Hard defense could be reintroduced, but in a different way. I believe a mixture of hard defense through skills and gear's natural defense alone could be implemented, while leaving the normal renewal defense formula to the refinement of your gear, accept you could stack it a little bit to make refine rates not just relevant to gear that gets bonuses after, say, +7 and/or +9. You could also reverse it and make the equipment's hard defense only stem from refinement, but reduce how much the refinement gives. Perhaps one refinement could give 0.3% to 0.6% hard defense. This would also make Mechanics much more relevant again, considering I remember Mechanics as impenetrable forces that could either put you down with extreme prejudice, or take you down with them. Now a days, they're pretty much off tanks and refine characters with some mid tier offensive options.

• Sura's Steel Body should honestly be returned to defense and not resists. I entirely agree that having the 90% resists trivializes all other tanks because you can just slap on a shield, some auto healing/auto assumpto gear, and tank almost anything in the game. Yes, your Steel Body runs out, but so what? You'll either have another Sura ready to take the punishment for you, or you'll have an offtank that takes the MVP and redirects it away so the party can recover. Hell, even in the smaller Endless Tower, you can pull this off as the only tank.

• The current Steel Body trivializes awesome skills like Reject Sword, Parrying, Weapon Blocking, Auto Guard, and many more, unless you're playing WoE. Proper resists for specific dungeons alone were (in my opinion) always fun to collect and utilize since a Sura alone couldn't tank everything. Some mobs had defense piercing skills, so you relied on defensive skills, resists, and sometimes perfect dodge to properly tank and kite them. Between that and other classes having alternative ways to nuke up close and from a distance, I always felt like I had a place in every party. I'd perk up and go "oh, I can fill that slot for you!" as opposed to just saying "hey, can I tag along for the exp?"

Not all classes are supposed to be good at everything

• Agreed. Right now, Suras are good at everything. Suras are already goddamn powerhouses in PvM and WoE. They'd be cheap tanks for most stuff, but keeping the emphasis on only mid tier tanking through reintroducing hard defense Steel Body makes other classes' tanking more useful. Suras can focus on Asura Strike and Gates of Hell/Ride in Lightning in WoE, while Rune Knights can be high tier tanks, Mechanics can be high tier tanks, Royal Guards can be high tier tanks, and Guillotine Crosses can be unique tanks with the ability to pull incredible damage. This in turn further encourages party play for a server that already has a lovely 30 level range on party exp share.

• Steel body makes you slow, so you just corner yourself and autoheal or line up with priests under Pneuma and/or Land Protector to get healed. Tanky classes that have good movement though allowed for gigantic mobs and slower MvP's to be tackled in more various ways, allowing people to explore and enjoy the classes they picked a little bit more The reintroduction of some hard defense makes all classes nicer and more viable to play defensively, while not overpowering people that farmed beyond +10 gear. Though, sharing +10 gear among friends and guild members becomes more viable as well. In other words, your refine rate should be useful for all classes; not just your cards and the gear you've acquired.

• Perfect Dodge on Assassins for mid tier tanking has always been super fun. Don't tell me it's not. If you've ever gathered 50 monsters, cornered yourself, and watched a slue of "lucky, miss," and low damage appear from a properly geared Assassin, you know what I'm talking about. Ice Titans and Banshees galore.

• I strongly agree that flee is useless right now, and that sucks. For low level gameplay, it's either Vit or Flee when you're leveling. This forces you to bring more healing items, which is kind of annoying. On the note of hard defense, I mentioned that I don't just want to see pre renewal mechanics implemented. However, with flee and hit, I honestly do. The renewal system for flee is so stupid and imbalanced that no player would be smart to utilize it over just being generally tanky through gear and cards alone, and no player can spec for full hit and find any kind of benefit when an MvP decides to Agi Up on us. It's stupid. Downright stupid, plain and simple. Replacing the current flee and hit formula with the pre renewal one, and tewaking mob hit and flee (if not changing those values back to pre renewal as well, despite how much of a workload that is) is my personal idea of a solution. If you decide to go that route, I'd be thrilled to help save time by putting in the values myself (or just tackling the project on my own, so you can focus on more important things).

• I get that updating all the mobs' Dex, Agi, and respective Hit and Flee might be difficult. I get that newer players might be surprised at the mechanics and feel somewhat alienated (despite their previous shitty "off-the-shelf" renewal servers already feeling weird and alien). Try to consider one of my personal standpoints though: I mention a lot that my best memories with RO came from the time I was still learning how to play all of it. I'm certainly no master of the game, but I definitely feel like I've seen all there is to see. Discussing with newer players how the mechanics work here and possibly contributing to a wiki where we can store this custom information inside of would be very rewarding, in my opinion. I have a strong feeling that  delving into such a unique flavor of mechanics would be a LOT of fun, and figuring out the best gear and tactics for different party and solo situations depending on your class could be a lot of fun for a really long time. I only say this because I've seen the sort of thing work before on a previous, legitimate-as-hell server (SaiphRO; now dead because the admins had a baby, and the admin prior supposedly died).

Another topic of discussion would be mob AGI values and NPC Agi Up locking classes and builds out from content, especially high end. A 5% hit chance on classes only serves to make powerhouses like Asura Strike, Acid Demonstration and Dragon Breath more attractive, when they are already the hardest scaling skills of their respective classes.

• Agreed entirely on this point.

     That's really all I have to say on this matter. Lots of what I'm mentioning above is vague and weird, but hopefully that can instigate some more discussion. I encourage you to pick apart my points and analyze weather or not there's any weight to my words.
 
Cheers~

Edited by Gionelles, 01 March 2016 - 01:12 AM.

[Syncope]

The only time I'll agree with Salad.

Wedding when?

When you stop being bad

[Gionelles]

The only time I'll agree with Salad.

Wedding when?

When you stop being bad

So never.

[Scias]

The only time I'll agree with Salad.

Wedding when?

When you stop being bad

So never.

I have a steel body 4 u

[Gionelles]

Savage.

[Salad]

First of all, thank you Gionelles for taking the time to post a thoughtful response to the topic. Second of all, I'm sorry for my late reply :(( I was paritally busy and partially waiting for this patch!

 

There is very good news about the situation between steel body and other classes tanking this patch: It looks like hard DEF and MDEF formulas might not need an ambitious overhaul.

 

This entire time, Assumptio was bugged to increase soft DEF/MDEF instead of hard DEF/MDEF. It's been fixed this patch but adjusted to not work with Steel Body (since that would be even sillier!) and the difference has been quite massive. Running around testing with 41 mdef and no reductions or elemental armor on my RK, I'm going from 800 per lightning bolt hit from Little Fatums to 400 per hit with assumptio on. That reduction is the same as having wind armor for -75% damage on another character. +150 MDEF from Hagalaz rune makes the bolts 80 damage rofl (from a base 1500 with 0 hard mdef).

 

These are pretty fantastic buffs considering some tanks were already able to compete with steel body tanking before the fix with more effort (gears, supplies). Now the gap is shorter, and Mechanics on Mados are a really good tank choice now given they cannot be dispelled and can receive Assumptio (devotion!) I'm not sure if other servers really have mado mechanics take up such a good party role as Leika, and they have all those QoL tweaks here too.

 

There is another weird bug with VIT DEF buffs and mobbing that can cause ridiculous amounts of damage if you are mobbing heavily which will also be fixed with a reset.

The server's not perfect right now of course, and NPC AGI UP and player flee potency is still an issue, but the Assumptio fix alone has given every class except suras in Steel Body a noticeable defense spike in parties.

 

As a side note, the Rune Knight mora sets have had slots added to their armors so physical RKs can do pretty well in 150+ content now. 35 MDEF from my mora set alone... I'll take it lmao

Edited by Salad, 19 March 2016 - 12:21 AM.