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#1 Blank

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Posted 22 July 2016 - 12:37 PM

TL;DR at the bottom.

Since the dawn of Monks, Knuckles have been pretty much a joke weapon in RO when compared to Maces even though it's the weapon Monks are supposed to be specialized in. Heck, renewal did nothing to change that. All these years, knuckles are nothing more than a noob trap or used only in the Glorious Fist gimmick. Since LeikaRO have been addressing multiple of the long running issues in RO, I propose only one simple change that will open up weapon choices for Monks(and Champions and Suras) while not making it the end-all-be-all weapon type choice for them. Before that, let me list down the differences between the two weapon types:

Maces

Size modifier of 75%(S) 100%(M) 100%(L)

ASPD penalty: -5

Innately indestructible

Knuckles

Size modifier of 100%(S) 75%(M) 50%(L)

ASPD penalty: -1

Up to +30 mastery ATK from Iron Fist

 

As you can see, aside from punching small critters and having 4 higher ASPD, maces are pretty much better than knuckles mainly due to the crippling size modifiers given to Knuckles. On top of that, the effects of 4 ASPD on Monks and their upper classes are small when you consider their main damage sources later on are restricted in spamability either through cooldown, after cast delay, spirit sphere consumption or through other special requirements (G. Fist). Where it does help though is by letting you Snap slightly faster and through Skyblow spamming (no point after 175 ASPD unless under strings) or Knuckle Arrow spamming (no point after 150 ASPD outside of strings). As for Iron Fist, most builds are pretty tight on skill points and put 5 points in on the way to getting Snap, which gives a measly +15 mastery ATK. Even at the full +30, maces generally have better weapon attacks compared to knuckles. Lets look at current attainable choices for both weapon types:

 

 

Eden Mace III, 172 wATK, non-refineable, Eden upgrades (+3% ATK, double racial), obtained through Eden Quests

Infinity Gada [1], 175 wATK, weapon level 4, enchant (STR, Fighting Spirit, Expert Archer), obtained from Infinite Tower Instance

Carga Mace [2], 175 wATK, weapon level 3, dropped by Anolian

Iron Driver [0], 155 wATK, weapon level 3, weapon range +1, dropped by Lord of Death and Turtle General, socket enchant to [3]

Erde [2], 130 wATK, weapon level 3, MaxSP +50 and healing power +10%, dropped by Orc Lord and Flamel Emul

 

 

Eden Knuckle I, 120 wATK, non-refineable, eden upgrades (+3% ATK, double racial), obtained through Eden Quests

Sura's Rampage [1], 157 wATK, weapon level 3, +[20+4*(refine-5)]% damage to Skyblow and Earthshaker and +[5-2*(refine-5)]% SP consumption of all skills, Malangdo enchant, dropped by Angra Mantis
Hatii Claw [1], 172 wATK, weapon level 4, MaxHP -2%, chance to bleed enemies on physical attacks, Malangdo enchant, dropped by Garm

Iron Nails [1], 100 wATK, weapon level 3, +[refine/2-5]% ASPD, indestructable, ignore 50% DEF, up to +100 eATK depending on combo skill levels, dropped by Fire Golem

Flash Claw [2], 160 wATK, weapon level 4, +1 ASPD, +(refine)% ASPD and physical damage, dropped by Excavation Robot

 

 

I left aside basic elemental weapons (because of converters), Glorious weapons (which Maces wins out through sheer ATK difference) and unattainable Vellum weapons. There are 3 things where maces generally wins out compared to knuckles: wATK, card slots and attainability. All other knuckles have too little wATK values to even consider. Aside Sura's Rampage, the ease of farming up Infinity Gada and Carga Mace allow them to be over-refined much easier. However, thanks to the custom buffs to old level 3 and 4 weapons and the availability of Iron Nails [1] and Flash Claw [2], knuckle users are able to obtain comparable strength by working on Garm's Claw [1] and Flash Claw [2], or obtain higher ATK potential at the cost of big skill points investment through Iron Nails [1]. Still, all this is rather moot considering knuckles loses 25% damage output on medium sized targets and a whooping 50% to anything large. Now let's look at smacking things bare-handed.

 

Bare Handed

Size modifier of 100% for all 3 sizes

ASPD penalty: 0

Riiiiiiight. How is it that punching stuff barehanded have no size penalty whatsoever but placing studded or jagged objects on your fist and punching with those make such a difference against medium and large targets? I propose changing the size modifier for knuckles to be the same as bare handed, as the size modifier is the main culprit in crippling knuckle viability. It doesn't help that a large chunk of what you'd want to kill later on are medium and large, players and MVP included. Thoughts?

 

TL;DR I propose a custom change for Knuckle size modifier to be similar to Bare Handed, 100% across the board to open up more weapon choices for Monks, Champions and Suras.


Edited by Blank, 22 July 2016 - 08:03 PM.


#2 Terpsichore

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Posted 22 July 2016 - 07:13 PM

This is actually something I wanted to tackle (along with daggers, 2h swords, instruments and possibly huumas) but it's a delicate issue.

That stats of the gear you've posted are a bit off though and there's even more mace choices (veteran hammer, robot's mechanical arm and ancient quadrille for example).

I'd like to play with this stuff but it needs careful testing (gotta remember the iron nails issue).

#3 Blank

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Posted 22 July 2016 - 08:01 PM

Oh well, for the stats I used RMS at first but then switched over to using @ii and @id ingame so I might have missed some values.

 

Iron Driver is 175 wATK in-game, weapon level 4

Erde is 145 wATK in-game
 

Now looking at the other weapons you've mentioned, (I don't know about each and every choices available in the server so thanks for pointing those out~)

Veteran Hammer [2] I intentionally left out as it's inferior to the Carga Mace [2], sitting at 170 wATK in-game while being a level 3 weapon like the Carga.

Ancient Quadrile [2] just puts maces ahead again, with 190 wATK without the heavy requirements of Iron Nails while having 1 extra slot, being a level 4 weapon and having 10% damage bonus against Undead and Demihuman races as well as Earth property targets.

Robot's Mechanical Arm [2] is in the same ballpark as the previous, with 195 wATK, weapon level 4 and a bonus of +20 to CRIT.

 

The last 2 weapons are simply better than the best knuckles available, with better size modifiers to boot. Though I do understand that itemization balance is a very delicate issue. I just hope that something is done to give knuckles some love and not continue to be the unwanted child anymore. (They look better too)



#4 Terpsichore

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Posted 22 July 2016 - 08:04 PM

I'd like more feedback from other players, and not just regarding knuckles, other weapon types suffer from a similar issue.

#5 Salad

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Posted 22 July 2016 - 09:26 PM

ASPD values do not seem correct on Mace and Knuckles here, I barely get higher ASPD using a Knuckle over a Mace from what I remember testing.

Garm Claw [1] is actually pretty nice on our server, we have someone that is using a +10 Malangdo enchanted one. Asura Strike is NOT affected by size modifiers on our server. If this was unintended, I highly recommend it stay considering the struggle of Knuckle weapons to begin with - with Iron Fists it actually isn't that bad.

Equipment ATK doesn't seem affected by size modifier, so Iron Nails is a bit better than it sounds. We had some pretty severe issues when Iron Nails was ignoring all DEF, I still would have liked the full piece DEf on select skills to make it a specialized option, but that ship has sailed. (Partial DEF pierce effects don't stack together well btw, so you are not getting 75% with expiatio or with other gears.)

Sura's Rampage had to be buffed multiple times (compare to the original rofl) to be better than a high attack Mace on the skills it should be boosting, so there is a definite and obvious problem. Though Fallen Empire's bonus damage isn't affected by size mods and that's the bulk of the damage, so an overupgraded Sura's Rampage is actually quite nice currently, I'm using a +10.

Flash Claw can have up to 3 slots on jRO and it's an insanely rare weapon here considering it's only a good option when overupgraded (an issue we have with a lot of these weapons.)

 

The idea I have been considering for some time is to give an additional effect with Iron Fists 10 that removes the size penalties or at least eases them. Another option is to give Knuckles innate bonuses with certain skills, much like Wind Cutter and Sonic Wave get a bonus with 2Hand Swords here. Something like Knuckle Arrow is a little too perfect isn't it? I really don't see that skill being used much here to begin with, and for whatever reason Terp keeps changing gears that increase Knuckle Arrow damage to Ride in Lightning instead, which is a skill better suited to Maces. Another option that can be played with is Iron Fists granting aftercast reduction if using Knuckle weapons, maybe 2.5% up to 25% with max Iron Fists -this would let skills like Sky Net Blow and Knuckle Arrow be more spammable with Knuckles since their higher ASPD is gated to begin with.

 

As for other weapon types, it be frank it's pretty dumb that we don't have any accessible gear or sets in-game that autocast Weapon Perfection on Leika. An autocast will not make Mechanics in party obselete (they are an insanely valuable party slot here) considering the downtime + gear slot exchange, this lack of option here is a problem. As for specific sets that need a buff, the double dagger Desert Twilight/Sandstorm set on Leika could autocast weapon perfection and have its ASPD boost effect have increased chance - it's like 0.1% right now. No one in their right mind is going to use a DD setup on our server considering how much mobs hurt and our lack of ASPD options for dualwield (swing dance OP tho).

 

I'm going to assume something is funky with iROwiki because I recall instruments and whips having different size penalties. Huumas could possibly make sense being full 100% just like guns, but ninjas are fantastic on our server to begin with with dualwield daggers, so buffing dagger mods would have ninjas go out of control.

 

Ultimately Weapon Perfection solves these issues and Mechanics are great to have in party to begin with, so I don't agree with a flat pass to reduce weapon penalties for weapon types. I would rather differentiate them through buffs to the weapons of the type itself having unique effects, and/or mastery skill/damage skills having bonus damage. This approach would allow more flavored builds, on top of being complimented by Mechanics for an even cooler party set up.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that Terpsichore is fairly open to suggestions on buffs and special effects to gears that are effectively unused or permanently inferior options - you have likely already discovered the countless changes to some of our weapons.


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#6 Terpsichore

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Posted 23 July 2016 - 01:51 AM

The mace and knuckle ASPD values are correct, I just did a general ASPD penalty table review and corrected some stuff though. Also made whips deal 75% to large just like instruments.

As for knuckles, original Flash Claw has 140 atk and there wasn't any info about the 3s version back then. Maybe it could be added to Seiyablem?

I still don't think that changing some weapons is a bad idea, and it doesn't have to be normalized across the table. For example knuckles are inherently inferior to maces (100%/75%/50% vs 75%/100%/100%). Making knuckles 100%/100%/75% or something wouldn't devalue maces since most of bosses are large and they have highest base damage if we're talking about PvP. I also like the idea of some skills doing more damage with knuckles.

#7 Salad

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Posted 23 July 2016 - 02:31 AM

I really think it would make more sense to have Flash Claw be [3] by default on our server like how our Pot Dofle Axe works. There's just no point in gating what is already a rare drop of an unpopular weapon class. I guess it could also be more common of a drop, it really depends on the extent of changes being planned. I'm really not fond of more forced slot enchanting to make some weapons usable, if anything we need a pass to make some socket enchants lower class from the npc. A rank Fireblend/Ice Falchion when it is C rank on jRO for example, or Zephyrus and Hellfire being S here (Hellfire A on jRO) makes those weapons disproportionate effort to power wise.

 

EDIT: MORE ON TOPIC, what skills other than Knuckle Arrow should/could be boosted by Knuckle weapon usage? I feel like a non-controversial start would be Monk and Champion combos skills, and changing Chain Crush Combo to 5 levels like the Joint Beat treatment.


Edited by Salad, 23 July 2016 - 02:42 AM.


#8 Blank

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Posted 23 July 2016 - 03:08 AM

As for Iron Nails, there are pros and cons to half of its ATK potential being eATK. eATK aren't affected by size modifiers, that's true. However, it doesn't benefit from STR bonus as well. Although it's not grand or anything, having only 100 base wATK means the weapon only receives 0.5 damage per point of STR before modifiers, against say a Carga or Iron Driver at 0.875 damage per point, 0.975 for Ancient Quadrile while Robot's Mechanical Arm sits at 0.95 per STR. All of those higher slot counts as well, and aren't heavily penalized with increasing target size.

The ASPD value at base (1 AGI, DEX, +ASPD%) should be correct though. However, the gap will grow lesser and lesser as these values rise since the ASPD formula is based on the gap between base ASPD value and 200 ASPD.

Giving a damage boost towards certain skills with the weapon type like you did with Two Handed Swords, say +50% to certain skills, that would have the same effect of giving those specific skills a 150% modifier against small enemies, 112.5% against medium, and 75% against large, which is a great option as well. If that's the path that'll be taken, much like the changes given to RK's Ignition Break tree, I propose giving a damage boost to all skills that are used in any of the Monk, Champion or Sura combos, maybe barring Guillotine Fist and Gates of Hell. The average knuckle still loses in raw ATK against the average mace, and it stays true for top end options for both weapon types. It should certainly open up potential for more knuckle usage, even if only for a certain build compared to being regarded as a joke weapon.



#9 Salad

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Posted 23 July 2016 - 03:36 AM

Yes, not benefiting from STR bonus is definitely a con. It might be worth mentioning that our weapons like Doom Slayer, Gigantic Blade, etc. were re-scripted to have the full base ATK and subtract if STR was too low, so those weapons get full benefit from STR on our server.

 

Asura Strike, Tiger Cannon, Gates of Hell, Flash Combo probably shouldn't have bonus damage with Knuckles. I can already envision a certain admin fainting at the idea of buffing Tiger Cannon. The sura combo tree is a little unique to begin with though, you can chain into GoH or TC, use those skills manually, or execute a Dragon Combo or Dragon Combo->Fallen Empire loop. Those execution speeds are heavily reliant on AGI which befits Knuckles, so I think buffing Dragon Combo and Fallen Empire could be possible. As an aside, I suggest looking up kaiser Knuckle in-game.

 

 

Not to derail the topic from monks (I have an executive order to mention this), but we could give flavor and more intricacies to 2H Swords by giving them 100% size mods when unmounted, as a inverse to Spear builds benefiting from perfect mods while mounted.



#10 Psor

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Posted 23 July 2016 - 05:02 AM

Make GF knuckle exclusive because it's obviously Guillotine FIST.

#11 colourings

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Posted 23 July 2016 - 06:21 AM

I'd be more hesitant with giving skills with no non-damage utility multipliers by weapon type. Ideally the choice between which weapon type to use should be significant, and choosing one over the other because 'the skill I have has a huge damage bonus with them' isn't much of a choice at all.

I agree with looking at the skills that care about ASPD, since that seems to be the most interesting reason to pick knuckles over maces. The Champ combo is just a DPS rotation though, and buffing it into viability could make it just replace the current DPS rotation. Is there a reason to consider that an improvement?
That said, unfortunately I'm not familiar enough with the class to offer a better suggestion (though I was thinking about what would happen if the Champ combo was usable during Steel Body...)


I don't know about the others, but Huumas are more strongly defined by their few flagship skills than other weapon types are. This probably isn't a bad thing (considering Rebel weapons are arguably the same), but if they're weak then I'd wager Swirling Petal and Throw Huuma Shuriken are due for review.



#12 Salad

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Posted 23 July 2016 - 08:30 AM

Monk/Champion combos are virtually completely unused compared to Sura active skills considering how clunky and unreliable they are, needing triple attack to activate and maxing out the skills being a massive skill point sink considering all of their downsides. They will in no shape or form replace the current "DPS rotation" as a Sura, considering how open-ended the class is in finding a way to kill your target. We are looking at a max level (10 levels plus pre-reqs!) Chain Crush Combo doing 2100% damage WITH a 50% bonus, and the entire combo chain being single target. That will never replace Tiger Cannon/Flash Combo which easily outdamages on a single target on top of being splash, or the current kite option of Ride in Lightning/Rampage Blaster. For reference, a level 10 manually casted Gates of Hell does 5000% base damage, which scales to 8750% at level 175, and the skill's bulk of damage is based on missing HP, so... err, Sura has quite a bit of wiggle room as far as the monk's line's skills being buffed without becoming an overbearing must-use option. The obvious benefit to monk/champion combos over something like Gates of Hell is SP efficiency, but it comes at a longer time and more unpredictable chance of doing your damage, on top of needing a heavily invested skill build, for a different playstyle.

 

While you are still a monk/champion, Throw Spirit Sphere is fantastic on our server (Mace advantage!) with our reduced cast time, so buffed combos will not force the class into one specific playstyle only. One shotting every eden quest mob up to 99/70 with a TSS with some gears is good!

 

Keep in mind again that as it stands currently, even for a weapon such as Sura's Rampage that starts with a 20% damage boost to certain skills, Mace weapons win out in damage using those skills because of how size penalties work.

 

Ninjas are amazing here in every area of the game if played properly and invested in, so I am sadly more hesitant on buffing Huuma size modifiers, considering their massive boosts in ATK with earth charms.


Edited by Salad, 23 July 2016 - 08:33 AM.


#13 colourings

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Posted 23 July 2016 - 09:39 AM

Sorry, I wasn't thinking about the numbers being suggested. I meant that Flash Combo and the Champ combo fulfill the same role in similar ways (correct me if I'm wrong), so if only the damage on them was changed then the stronger option would always be picked (except for flavour reasons, perhaps). If the Champ combo was buffed in a way that would leave it still unable to compete with the Sura's existing DPS options, then there's no issue. I think it would be cool if it could compete though, and if there were reasons to use the Champ combo over the Sura skills and vice versa.



#14 Salad

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Posted 23 July 2016 - 10:17 PM

The only role they fulfill similarly is that they both do damage. Functionally and playstyle wise the skills are completely different. You do not wait for a triple attack proc to be able to execute any Sura-related combo chains.

Dragon Combo is an on-demand active skill like Bash. Suras don 't ctrl click as it stands right now, they have no reason to as their new skills were made rightfully accessible. Flash Combo is an on-demand automated sura combo chain that is weaker (no bonus damage) than executing the Tiger Cannon combo chain manually, as it has none of the steep requirements to cast or the learning curve needed.

All of the monk and champion combos require a triple attack proc to be able to start, and if you fail the execution you start back at triple attack. You are ctrl clicking with monk and champion combos. You do not with sura skills. Think Rebel's "Quick Draw Shot" for monk combos. That means they are different playstyles, different stat builds to some extent, different skill builds, and from this topic's discussion, different gear builds.



#15 Blank

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 04:07 PM

Kaiser Knuckles sit at 130 wATK sadly, with only a single slot.

I can see the worry on buffing up one of the class' 3 main nukes. If what Salad mentioned on G. Fist ignoring size modifiers here is true, then that should definitely be excluded from the list. However, I see no immediate worry on buffing both Gates of Hell and Tiger Cannon damage (by 50%) when equipped with knuckles. It effectively only brings up the damage to 112.5% and 75% against medium and large targets respectively which are the bulk of the end game, while still having generally lower ATK values compared to wielding maces. Flash Combo, if I remember correctly, uses the level and bonuses of the skills included in the chain with the added quirk of an ATK bonus and no massive HP and SP cost on Tiger Cannon but with only Fallen Empire receiving its combo bonus. If combo related skills do get the bonus, it should boost the whole chain by default.

Here's a list of all available combo chains for Suras barring Flash Combo:

 

Raging Trifecta Blow > Raging Quadruple Blow > Raging Thrust > Guillotine Fist

Raging Trifecta Blow > Raging Quadruple Blow > Raging Thrust > Chain Crush Combo > Guillotine Fist

Raging Trifecta Blow > Raging Quadruple Blow > Raging Thrust > Glacier Fist > Chain Crush Combo > Guillotine Fist

Raging Trifecta Blow > Dragon Combo > Sky Blow

Raging Trifecta Blow > Dragon Combo > Falling Empire > Gates of Hell

Raging Trifecta Blow > Dragon Combo > Falling Empire > Tiger Cannon

Root Level 4 > Raging Quadruple Blow > Raging Thrust > Guillotine Fist

Root Level 4 > Raging Quadruple Blow > Raging Thrust > Chain Crush Combo > Guillotine Fist

Root Level 4 > Raging Quadruple Blow > Raging Thrust > Glacier Fist > Chain Crush Combo > Guillotine Fist

Dragon Combo > Sky Blow

Dragon Combo > Falling Empire > Gates of Hell

Dragon Combo > Falling Empire > Tiger Cannon

Thus, the effected skills are Chain Crush Combo, Dragon Combo, Falling Empire, Gates of Hell, Glacier Fist, Guillotine Fist, Raging Quadruple Blow, Raging Thrust, Raging Trifecta Blow, Sky Blow and Tiger Cannon. Root does not deal damage.

 

As for non-Monk weapons:

  • Daggers have the same harsh size modifiers as knuckles, though I'm hesitant on commenting on this one since the arrival of Faceworm Queen's Legs will turn DD Crit to be the best Ctrl+Click option for the Assassin classes;
  • Two-Handed Swords already received some love in Leika RO in the form of additional effects on Two-Hand Quicken as well as the damage boosts to Sonic Wave, Traumatic Blow and Wind Cutter while they are wielded (though I do wish Bowling Bash and Ignition Break are included albeit maybe at a lower value just to give some added perks to using these skills with Two-Handed Swords compared to other weapon types). I do like Salad's suggestion of making them the inverse of Spears when unmounted though, giving up better movement speed and weight capacity in exchange for better size modifiers on small to medium targets. (Stick the size modifier ignore and +1 mastery ATK per Mastery level when unmounted on Peco Peco Ride and maybe even giving maxed Dragon Mastery the same Mastery level*10 attack bonus it gives to spears as well);
  • Instruments got a rather great change through being usable for Severe Rainstorm but I can't comment on them much since I only have a few hours of experience with performer classes through fooling around with borrowed characters in the past. They do share size modifiers with Katars though;
  • Huuma Shurikens are... I'd say they're in a strange spot. They have decent damage output through Swirling Petal BUT only with that particular skill while equipped with a particular weapon, Huuma Swirling Petal [2]. Outside of that, daggers are better with the option of either a shield or more weapon cards in the off-hand;
  • One-Handed Sword is another weapon type I feel that has little use these days. They used to be the weapons of choice for Grand Cross Crusaders way back when and then by Soul Destroyer Assassin Crosses. Now, they're only effectively used by Acid Bombing Genetics or with Bowling Bash. Maybe make them the inverse of Two-Handed Swords of the Knight classes for Crusader classes, probably with their more Holy-esque skills and Burst Attack (which depicts a sword in its icon) and/or opening up the use of Hesperus Lit, Moon Slasher (slashing is easier with a sword anyway) and Overbrand (done by drawing a cross in front of the user) with One-Handed Swords. Maybe give Peco Peco ride the same benefits as the proposed bonuses for Two-Handed Swords to One-Handed Swords as well. As an added trivia, the official artwork for both Crusaders and Royal Guards depict them with a sword and shield /hmm

On a side note, I never really can get my head around the inversed activation chance growth for Raging Trifecta Blow. It's inferior to Double Attack in every possible way and there should be no problem in an increase since Monks have no business Ctrl+Clicking stuff outside of trying to start their combo since they don't have the various steroids given to the Thief classes. It adds more incentives to max out the skill and make combo builds more useable. A side-effect is slightly improved single target damage output of Ctrl-Clicking Rouges. As it stands, it's either a 5.8% average Ctrl-Click DPS increase at level 1 or a 40% average increase at level 10, compared to the 50% average increase of Double Attack Level 10 (which also actually counts as two hits instead of one with a slight HIT bonus). Why not reverse the activation chance growth of Raging Trifecta Blow? Having a 1/3 chance of starting your combo at max skill level is a great change compared to the current 1/5, and the chance at level 5 could still stay at 1/4. make it 50% or even 100% with miniscule damage and combo chain for days! heh
 

Edit: Added additional stuff and fixed incomplete sentences.


Edited by Blank, 24 July 2016 - 04:35 PM.


#16 Salad

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 08:34 PM

Did you look up Kaiser Knuckle on the site or in-game? I suggested looking it up in-game with @id as you will see that it lets you use level 4 North Wind and autocast it... if you are lucky to get your hands on one it opens up a pretty fun off-build for leveling.

 

Iron Nails is already quite competitive for both GoH and TC. I have 2 maxed Suras on the server that I leveled mainly by myself actively, (not Steel Body) more damage on those skills is too exploitable. If you give those skills a mod like that Suras are never going to use anything other than knuckles, or those 2 skills which they are mainly using already. IIRC the size penalty only affects the % atk portion of those skills like Fallen Empire, so a 50% final mod boost is monstrous.

 

Fallen Empire has no combo bonus, seeing as Fallen Empire can only be used after Dragon Combo as a "combo only" skill :p. Again, if you want less utilized skills to become a better option, you do not want to buff the dominant skills... Sura Combo GoH/TC/FC builds are already the best endgame and even easiest starting builds thanks to Flash Combo. Those skill formulas are just too gigantic for most things in the game to have a hopes of competing in current skill forms.

 

It's a weird quirk but Triple Attack/Raging Trifecta Blow does have some logic to its lowered chance - the delay before you start ctrl clicking again is dependent on your AGI/DEX like all monk/sura combo skills. It could actually lower your DPS depending on your value if it procced too often at lower %, so maxing the skill out for pure ctrl click (which is what rogues want) is better for DPS regardless of the lowered chance. I think it would be nice if the skill level was able to be selected though, like active skills. I'm not getting where you think Triple Attack doesn't function similarly to Double Attack, both skills should be doing an empowered single hit (yellow numbers).

 

I have heard that the inverse-mount for 2H swords is already implemented ingame after the last reboot. Let's all pester Terp to make a post on the forums when she puts these things in yes...

There's been a massive amount of buffs for 2H sword RK on the server already, I really don't think they need more skill buffs. If anything I feel like spear builds are overshadowed by 2H on our server, they don't really have much going for them and they are still tied to Ur set with less bonus than 2H after our custom changes, so they can't really benefit from the Sonic Wave/Wind Cutter damage. The only advantage they have is a shield, which while good, means their damage is also pretty mediocre with the state of the spear skills right now considering they are tied to the set... I guess spear builds can Dragon Breath though.

 

Some of the best MvP/endgame content gear slots for GX on our server are certain one-hand swords. Soul Breaker is amazing on our server. Someone else suggested an ASPD bonus per level of Sword Mastery. I would actually like something like that, for 2nd/3rd class much like how Improve Dodge gets additional bonus as a 2nd class. This has the added benefit of affecting Rogues too, as Sword Mastery on that branch is the ultimate noob trap currently. Bowling Bash is buffed on our server with weapons like Ruber [1]/[3] and Hrist's Sword [3]. The only buff I think Bowling Bash could use is to remove the fixed cast time from the skill.



#17 Terpsichore

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 11:34 PM

Yeah, I didn't have TC/GOH in mind when talking about new skill mods for knuckles, the last thing the game needs are those skills getting any sort of buffs. My major worry about improving the knuckle size mod is iron nails again as it already outdoes most of mace options on decent DEF.

#18 Blank

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 03:47 AM

I looked Kaiser Knuckle up in-game. It should be good for Ctrl-Clicking with (since it looks like the proc chance is 10% according to the site database!). Thanks for that, didn't really catch my attention the previous times I looked at it.

 

If not all parts of those skills Gates of Hell and Tiger Cannon are affected by size modifiers, then I agree that they probably should be excluded from the buffs along with G. Fist. I was under the impression that all parts of these skills are affected by size modifier. Sorry for the misinformed suggestion.

 

I did not actually say that Raging Trifecta Blow isn't similar to Double Attack, I said that it's inferior. Lower average DPS increase even at max level, interrupts the hit-locking (if used on a bow), counts as only 1 hit (double attack actually counts as 2), and doesn't have the (albeit small) HIT boost. Its main use from what I see is in starting the Monk's combo chain since Monk classes have none of the tools Thief classes get to buff up their Ctrl-Click damage (EDP, Dark Claw, New Poisons, Auto Shadow Spell and Reproduced Duple Light which is way better than Raging Trifecta Blow once you get to Shadow Chaser). Better proc chance means it'll be better for its original purpose.

Bowling Bash is buffed with those two weapons here, true, though they're One-Handed Swords with the option of wearing a shield. Veteran Sword only has 1 slot and doesn't provide anything else so I was thinking a boost of around 25% for Two-Handed Swords, or maybe just Two-Handed weapons in general. Spears are still in a good spot single target wise with Hundred Spears and/or Clashing Spiral though they're dependent on Dragon Breaths for mobbing.

Is Soul Destroyer actually good in this server? They're too weak once you get your 3rd class skills on other servers. Is that certain One-Handed Sword the Magical Blade [3] by any chance? They still have no business being in the artwork for Crusaders and Royals Guards though. Sword Mastery affects Daggers as well so it's not really trash for Rogue classes. And there's always the Elemental Sword gimmick...

Off-topic: How does the built-in custom bonuses for skills in-game stack with outside bonuses to the same skill. For example, the bonus on Wind Cutter with Two-Handed Swords and the set bonus of the Peuz set. Do they stack additively or multiplicatively?

 



#19 Neryth

Neryth

    never stop spinning

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 04:39 AM

Soul Destroyer is strong enough to be used as the primary DPS for the toughest MvPs in the game, including Desperate Morroc who has 90mil HP. 

 

Also, afaik Soul Destroyer is only shit on Hercules based servers due to a nuuuumber of bugs...


Edited by Neryth, 25 July 2016 - 04:44 AM.


#20 Blank

Blank

    Chonchon

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 10:04 AM

Ah, thanks for the info on Soul Destroyer. It's not just on Hercules based servers though. The skill is weak-sauce even on officials where the amount of effort required to make it potent enough could have just went into building up a DD Crit GX instead and achieve better results.




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