44 replies to this topic

[Psor]

Holy fuck, I didn't say it isn't emergency skill. I said that by casting it you fuck up your whole guild because suddenly literally everything except 2-3 decent skills hits you. Ele shield is meh tier sill, not great. Also if you can target mech in stealth field then I take back my words about that field. Still all mech and chaser slides should be disabled.

But whatever, go on and watch how WoE on aeRO will still be shitty zerg and emp break feast that isn't attractive for any skilled guild from pre-re, just like on Cookie and other current shit servers. I can bet that I'll be right once again.

[Hammertime]

Holy fuck, I didn't say it isn't emergency skill. I said that by casting it you fuck up your whole guild because suddenly literally everything except 2-3 decent skills hits you. Ele shield is meh tier sill, not great. Also if you can target mech in stealth field then I take back my words about that field. Still all mech and chaser slides should be disabled.

But whatever, go on and watch how WoE on aeRO will still be shitty zerg and emp break feast that isn't attractive for any skilled guild from pre-re, just like on Cookie and other current shit servers. I can bet that I'll be right once again.

WoE has always been shit because of no equal numbers facing eachother and no cooldowns on death, no slides wont change this or removing mobility skills. In fact it would dumb renewal even more down. It would just make the one with more numbers even more effective, because no big plays allowed. Anyway stop trying to turn renewal into prerenewal. If you don't like mobility go play prerenewal. The only mobility skill that is borderline broken is body relocation. Besides how would you know how WoE was on cookie when you barely ever played it. I think cookiero had a pretty good WoE during time MGI/Madzerg/Domination/God Strenght, it was garbage before the enabling of battlegrounds through menu I agree.

Edited by Cenel, 18 September 2014 - 12:23 PM.

[Psor]

WoE has always been shit because of no equal numbers facing eachother and no cooldowns on death

1. It's up to you if you want to recruit more people or get better. On Cookie lot of guilds decided to go for quantity, not quality. On WoE servers it's solved by decreasing guild cap to 24 etc. Ofc probably nobody will want to decrease guild cap here so it's not an option or you'd have to come up with new mechanism that lets only certain number of unique first guild positions get into the castle. But then WoE would be dominated by guilds like Avalanche (I'd like to remind you that whole server had to form alliance to beat them back on Cookie, there're still proofs on Cookieforums in WoE threads, also it's proof that your "muh numbers" argument doesn't apply to Cookie because averange skill on Cookie wasn't that great) and the rest wouldn't have any chances. Eventually both would get bored and WoE would turn into stagnating swamp.
2. Cooldown on skill allows player to still have fun in the castle and be useful to his guild by using other skills. Cooldown on death removes the fun for player who dies and has possibility to turn WoE into corner camping fest where every guild rather wants to defend than attack because defending always gives advantage. People suddenly are scared to attack. Or do you mean that cooldowns on skills disappear when you die? If yes then I agree.
 

Besides how would you know how WoE was on cookie when you barely ever played it. I think cookiero had a pretty good WoE during time MGI/Madzerg/Domination/God Strenght, it was garbage before the enabling of battlegrounds through menu I agree.

Funny because I was playing in MGI. I was playing in this guild basically from the start so I was before we started WoEing on Cookie, then I was on every or almost every WoE MGI participated in and then played with Salvation, polish guild on Cookie. I stopped WoEing after both MGI and Salvation died (with exception of 1 WoE I was invited to by Eryx). On tRO I didn't even bother to start attending WoE. Ofc these times were better than before and after but they still were shit compared to pre-re or even re WoEs of which vids I'll link below in a sec. If Cookie WoE was best renewal WoE you played then I pity you.
 

no slides wont change this or removing mobility skills. In fact it would dumb renewal even more down. It would just make the one with more numbers even more effective, because no big plays allowed. Anyway stop trying to turn renewal into prerenewal. If you don't like mobility go play prerenewal. The only mobility skill that is borderline broken is body relocation.

You need to realize what games exactly are. Games are artificial problems to solve because overcoming challenges gives us feeling of satisfaction and fulfillment thus makes us happy. Basically games are digital drugs created for fun. We are playing this shit for fun and I doubt you'll disagree with that.
So if fun is the point and fun comes from hard challenges, how to make game even more fun? Make it more challenging. Being good alone sure is something you can be proud of, but being good and being able to cooperate requires more from you, thus is more challenging and more fun. That's why pre-re WoE was so successful. Note that before renewal was implemented into the game, official servers were much more populated. Players were disappointed in OHKO fest and no need for real teamwork. Most of skilled WoE players stayed on pre-renewal servers. If you compare most of current vids from re WoE with pre-re WoEs, they're two different leagues, pre-re is much more challenging and sophisticated. Making renewal WoE similar to pre-re gives chances to get this playerbase back thus increasing online counter and making server more successful.

Now look at these 2 vids:


These vids come from early renewal where geneticists and SD mechs had still pitful dmg, spiral was strong as fuck, DB was piercing every reduction except fire armor and new status resistances weren't working. People still weren't used to re WoE so they played in pre-re style where ranged skills are basic offensive power, there's high teamwork and close range skills are used mainly to clean up remaining single enemies or during pushes where actually whole guild was pushing. We were still learning renewal then, actually 2nd vid is the first WoE we discovered how OP cursed circle is and abused it to immobilize whole guild and wipe it (btw it was bugged because amount of locked characters wasn't capped by number of spheres. Still it should be nerfed even more by disallowing sura to use any skills while using CC, just like in case of blade stop).

In the vids you can see that inspi RGs were as OP as now, able to wipe whole guild in 2-3 hits, still both them and RKs could be stopped by hitlock created with dragonbreath and magic spam. Executing such 'big plays' as you called it required support from guild. On Cookie WoE was much worse so you didn't even need much support to do this and this is the reason why it was zerg fest.

Now look at the 5:45 in 2nd vid. There's mech using slides to slide near light emblemed guild. He did it without hp loss in split second. Compare it to RGs and RKs trying to do this with speed potions and pneuma support in AoE barrage, getting hitlocked. If SD was strong back then and he used bingbang macros to take turns, he could easily detonate whole guild. I still remember that WoE on Cookie in which our GL who played RG turned on inspi, came closer to the barricade defended by some guild with barely any support from the rest of our guild and casted like 3-4 OB. Barricade disappeaed along with whole guild standing behind it. It's fucking retarded because if we filled guild with RKs, geneticists and RKs while keeping just 1-2 support chars we'd be able to win by sending 1-2 chars every time we'd find any obstacle, regardless how big it'd be. Offensive classes will always have a chance to shine because you need them to kill people in WoE, but GvG with teamwork gives chance to shine for support classes, unlike PvP fest full of pinoy and br one man heroes.

And body relocation without fury consumes spheres. Fury can be dispelled and dispell is spammable. This means it's not hard to dispel sura and when you do it, his attack goes down every time he uses snap because his skills use spheres. Slides have no counter except OHKO which is retarded and statuses with random chances (and I heard that people complain that with increased lvl and stat caps lot of statuses are useless). Also the best skills sura have are single target, not AoE like in case of mechanic.

Your 'big plays' are cancer because they turn WoE into giant PvP instead of GvG. In PvP emp is getting broken like every couple of minutes because mobility is so great single players can get through other single players or even small groups and break the emp. I hope you remember that when MGI already was dead and Salvation was playing, we had lots of empbreafest-WoEs which was annoying as fuck because 95% of players were kicked out of the castle before finding any enemies. GXes and chasers were just speed pot rushing to emp and breaking it because "muh castle victory".

I can bet that if server will be developed in the way you suggest it'll be another Cookie or trueRO shit WoE and everything I'm posting right now will be true. Right now I think that nerfing mobility and offensive power is one of the best ways to make WoE as enjoyable as pre-re WoE was. Renewal already fixed few of the main issues with pre-re WoE like the fact that classes like LK, WS, stalker or SinX were borderline useless.

Fuck yo big plays nigger.

Edited by Psor, 18 September 2014 - 04:23 PM.

[Byte]

 

 

Renewal already fixed few of the main issues with pre-re WoE like the fact that classes like LK, WS, stalker or SinX were borderline useless.

 

what

 

edp lexa sb was strong, stalkers were used for ecalling, lks for emp breaking, and ws for CT @ 186 aspd

[Psor]

EDP lexed SB wasn't worth sacrificing player each time you kill someone. SB has so long animation delay it was basically suicide to come closer to guild with ground defense champ or creo that ills anything with more than 1 vit in split second. Also boxes of sunlight everywhere so you couldn't even sneak near any decnet guild in your cloak. I'll give you that they were best emp breakers, but nothing more.

Yes, stalkers were used for recalling and undispellable LP piercing magic spammers but that's all. People often don't even takemagic stalkers and sometimes you would see champion as recaller thanks to his amazing mobility with body relo.

LKs were totally useless. If you want emp breaker, go for SinX. LKs couldn't kill anyone unless they were wearing MvP cards and godly gears (but then any class can kill and the ones that could do it without such items are even better now). I hope you wasn't thinking about 190 aspd berserk for emp breaking because berserk in WoE is the most retarded thing you could do.

WS > see SinX. If SinX had problem with getting close and staying alive with his hiding skills then WS doesn't have any chance. All he was good for were party buffs.

Do you even pre-re metagame? Guilds have ainly HPs, HWs, creators, professors, paladins, champs, recall on stalker or champ and eventually SS sniper/magic stalker for LP piercing dmg. Watch some recnt WoE vids from WoEcentered servers. Also emp breaking SinX if they were actually caring about conquering a castle, not only decent GvG.

Edited by Psor, 18 September 2014 - 05:55 PM.

[Terpsichore]

Trans WoE was just as shit as the renewal one, just a different kind of shit that you're all used to.

 

No need to glorify it.

[Psor]

Yet much more people play it. But I already know you think that PvP arenas are the best form of PvP. I remember discussing it/arguing with you back on Cookie + you confirmed it recently here or on Cookie forums.

Oh, and one more thing. Tell me how best WoE would look like and how to achieve that. I'm curious. inb4 balanced with possibility of any form of playstyle without any practical mechanics change examples

Edited by Psor, 18 September 2014 - 06:12 PM.

[Terpsichore]

Pretty sure I never argued with you. WoE and PvP are two entirely different things and you can't really compare them.

 

 

There's no such thing as "balance" in a game like this, and much less in RO, a game that's defined by it's "balance through imbalance" design, which is actually pretty clever and certainly works way better than the generic homogenization we can see today.

This game is supposed to have absurd flashy and powerful abilities and defined class roles as long as there's a hard counter to everything. In contrast, modern MMOs employ homogenization, where nothing stands out, no class greatly exceeds at anything and everything has a lot of counters, resulting in dull gameplay.

 

 

Trans era suffered from lack of ways to actually kill others, those being limited to a couple of classes, which resulted in long, dull and predictable fights, where most of skills weren't even useable. WoE SE wasn't much better with its cannon fodder formations on lp, blocking out even more classes from being able to do anything useful.

Renewal is more focused on direct damage and crowd control, fights are faster, less predictable and mistakes matter more. Yet again, a couple of classes shine and are a bit over the top. If anything, teamplay is more vital now that disabling people isn't a trivial matter like it was during trans era, people need to react faster and multiclienting isn't as easy. In this regard, you could say that being a "PvP room hero" now matters more because your personal performance, judgement and reaction are more important and droning behind others for two hours using the 2 skills you were assigned to just doesn't work as well anymore. Which is only a good thing.

The damage output of certain skills is an issue though since one-two shoting became way easier and this is where I would apply custom changes, bring down certain skills that are way over the top and boosting others that are sadly irrelevant. Nothing that would completely change the game though.

 

Having said all of this, I want you to recall pretrans era and how the only thing to reliably kill people was asura, with trans update, more damage was added and with renewal, even more. What you seem to want to do is to backpedal instead of advancing. There's no arguing that renewal is more complex thanks to many new mechanics and classes having more tools under their sleeves, no amount of lp dancing for 2 hours on your trans server is going to change that. So rather than backpedal, we want to slightly adjust the current mechanics to emphasize this slightly more complex gameplay while toning down things that have no clear or reliable counter and have too much of (easily applied) impact.

[Hammertime]

Lol Psor the guilds in that vid look mad free. All I see is garbage trans players attempting to play renewal. But stay delusional thinking grouped up people mashing skills = working together properly. I don't see any intitation happening from any of the guilds. Barely any cursed circle. No quality plays being made at all, that have any impact on winning a skirmish. Multiple players having no purpose whatsoever, just standing clueless not doing shit and waiting to die to DB. Second vid clearly Salvation zerging and the other guild being outnumbered. No foods. Also autopot on the sura recording hahah what a baddie. One decent RK knowing something else than DBing pneuma's in salvation and carrying his guild. No chasers at all and lack of top tier classes being played in that vids WoE environment: (RK , Sura, Gen & Chaser). Already shows in what position this guild is in: It's zerging since no need for optimisation of roles. Both very casual guilds. Also your judgment seems to be based on these outdated vids, you barely even know how the current metagame is to even know what is balanced and what isn't. Big plays is what allow smaller guild to contest zerging guilds, but it's clear to me you don't know what it's like to be playing against the numbers, since all you have done so far is playing in zerg. This doesn't compare to cookie woe's at all no offence to you but you haven't played  enough after everyone improved by playing BG's daily. 

Stop crying about mobility it has a counter. Just use Howl of mandragora and kill their AB and they can't use those skills anymore without being stuck in cast animation and high likely dying.

Stop trying to slow renewal just admire it's more faster paced gameplay, where coordination between few players is that much more rewarding. If you don't like renewal go back to playing trans WoE where you can stand and mash 1 skill all WoE next to your buddies and think you good.

Edited by Cenel, 18 September 2014 - 07:34 PM.

[Psor]

1. Most skills weren't used because there will always be one best, most efficient comination. That's what metagame is. It lays is our nature to minimax. Humans are species that will squeeze every drop from everything and try to get even the smallest advantage over enemy. We're species that seeks perfection and efficiency. Just look at technology, meta in games, fashion, e-penis fights, 3rd pt software use, sports etc. You can try to balance things out to make every skill have similar potential but people will still calculate things out and find statistically the best set of skills and builds.
http://www.youtube.c...O3Dz2BVQXo#t=65
In this vid you can see LKs in pre-re actually being viable. Thing is, this tactic still is more risky than the playstyle most of us know and this is a reason why it isn't commonly used.

2. "teamplay is more vital now that disabling people isn't a trivial matter like it was during trans era"
Practice shows otherwise. Besides teamwork actually requires to be in range of support skills etc. With such influx of AoEs compiled with offense/defence imbalance sticking together is risky as fuck,someone could say not profitable because it's too easy to wipe/cripple beyong repair whole guild. By spreading on the other hand you often make supports unable to reach everyone with their supporting skills and make them easy targets to pick because no one can hide in the crowd anymore. This "cannon fodder formation" as you called it was actually the best counter to AD spam excluding pneuma which can't be placed on LP and 1 or less vit build. This is why creators often were using grfs that replaced vital classes sprites with detale or morroc sprites - to make it easier to actually hit someone more than just 1-2 times which is not enough to score a kill.

And yes, I'am backpedaling because practice shows it works and I'm not sure if your idea will. But yeah, it's not like once you do a change it can't be reversed and replaced with different idea, especially that Rikter said that beta will be like 1 month long iirc.

But I like yourpost in general.

Also you just reminded me you were praising WoE 1.0, not pvp arena. Probably it was Nylfir back on Cookie with pvp talk then. Then I take my words about that back.

[Psor]

Fuck such short post edition possibility.

@Cenel
I said it was early renewal so it's much different. DB back then was the best skill RK had, better than storm blast or crush strike. I remember we've been wearing fire armor and got hit by it for about 5k while on Cookie RKs barely could reach 1k dmg when I used the same gear on sorc.
In second vid Salvation was, as you called it, "zerging" because we actually used cursed circle. When it's used outside of your screen you don't see its effect (dark sprites), that's why you can't see CC usage. CC was actually used in most of these assaults. We weren't that stupid to rush enemies while defending which is always easier without certanity we're most likely to win.
Each guild had at least 1 chaser iirc but thanks to that AoE spam in choke points it was actually much harder for chasers to come into range of shadow form. And berserk paint wasn't working.
Also green emblemed guild was actually more skilled, we just had couple more players so we could afford 2 ABs spamming lauda to get rid of mandragora and deep sleep, including one in the back, outside of enemy range to cure AB in front if he was statused. But yeah, something like this is possible only in choke points by defending guilds. And Anmer, guy who recorded 2nd vid is actually one of the better players, playing in Thor's Anger or however that russian guild which wrecks everyone's shit in WoE was called.
Let me guess, you've been talking with Eryx who constantly spews shit about me from his mouth?

[Hammertime]

No I'm Hammertime your best buddy. 

Edited by Cenel, 18 September 2014 - 08:18 PM.

[Psor]

If it's really you then it's hilarious that you say such things about me after praising my "positioning" and few things in these vids back on Cookie.

Also you value yourself too much if you think you're my BEST buddy.

[Terpsichore]

RK is another matter we have to look into, the class had so many ups and downs and is heading straight into LK tier after the new rune gets nerfed and they lose their only gimmick utility.

[Psor]

Demi human eduction piercing DB was nice. It's problem was it was reducable only by long range reductions and fire armor, not any other ele reduction. Also you could test dmg with all the HP/SP buffs and pots. There's so many hp and sp boosters that it might be really good with it.

[Hammertime]

If it's really you then it's hilarious that you say such things about me after praising my "positioning" and few things in these vids back on Cookie.

Also you value yourself too much if you think you're my BEST buddy.

If I recall correctly positioning was about the one woe you played in Cookie not about these vids. And it was to get you to play WoE more frequently since you and sira always being forum warriors but never actually play.

[Psor]

I know and that's why I didn't mean positioning in vids. Also you'll have to work harder to trick me if you lack manpower in your guild. Besides why would you want me if I'm so fucking bad? I stopped WoEing because both guilds I liked died and WoE was shit anyway. If it was that great, I wouldn't be pushing these changes I suggest.
 

but never actually play.

See

Funny because I was playing in MGI. I was playing in this guild basically from the start so I was before we started WoEing on Cookie, then I was on every or almost every WoE MGI participated in and then played with Salvation, polish guild on Cookie. I stopped WoEing after both MGI and Salvation died (with exception of 1 WoE I was invited to by Eryx). On tRO I didn't even bother to start attending WoE. Ofc these times were better than before and after but they still were shit compared to pre-re or even re WoEs of which vids I'll link below in a sec. If Cookie WoE was best renewal WoE you played then I pity you.

Edited by Psor, 18 September 2014 - 08:48 PM.

[Syncope]

Did someone mention Avalanche? Lets remove Cart Cannon and then tell me how good they were.

@Psor. Also if you say Cookie WoE was garbage, you surely have not played WoE when Dynasty was around. We had 15 tops attendees per WoE yet our precast was hardly broken. I can send you replays if you want but it probably wont work since its from the old client. Everything back then was proper and organized so stop taking your walls of useless texts here, You dont know what youre talking about. As always.

Psor. This is the summary of your ro life along with sira's.

If I recall correctly positioning was about the one woe you played in Cookie not about these vids. And it was to get you to play WoE more frequently since you and sira always being forum warriors but never actually play.

Forum warrior 4ever. Only good at posting random long boring senseless shit. To make you even more mad, you do not know how to play sorc at all. Dont touch it again.

Edited by Syncope, 18 September 2014 - 09:26 PM.

[Psor]

 

you surely have not played WoE when Dynasty was around

No shit Sherlock. Ofc I'm talking about WoEs I played on Cookie. I have 2 Cookie clients so send me replays, might work on the older one. I'm curious.

[Sephiroth]

Did someone mention Avalanche? Lets remove Cart Cannon and then tell me how good they were.

@Psor. Also if you say Cookie WoE was garbage, you surely have not played WoE when Dynasty was around. We had 15 tops attendees per WoE yet our precast was hardly broken. I can send you replays if you want but it probably wont work since its from the old client. Everything back then was proper and organized so stop taking your walls of useless texts here, You dont know what youre talking about. As always.

Psor. This is the summary of your ro life along with sira's.

If I recall correctly positioning was about the one woe you played in Cookie not about these vids. And it was to get you to play WoE more frequently since you and sira always being forum warriors but never actually play.

Forum warrior 4ever. Only good at posting random long boring senseless shit. To make you even more mad, you do not know how to play sorc at all. Dont touch it again.

 

 

Right. Because we only ever won when Cart Cannon was insanely strong.  

Edited by Outsideheaven, 19 September 2014 - 02:22 AM.