31 replies to this topic

[Psor]

1. Issue
I see you're trying to make old statuses useful again. To be honest I don't think it's really needed, and definitely it shouldn't be priority but whatever, if you really want to change it then I want you to at least not fuck it up. If you want to make them usable again then you need to take into consideration few things first.


2. Few facts about players, warfare and statuses:
Statuses can be put into 3 groups:
>the ones which turn you into sitting duck: stun, frozen, crystalization, deep sleep, stone curse, sleep
>the ones which just lower your performance but can be cured by yourself (aka irrelevant): all this shit like blind, chaos, curse, poison, silence etc
>the ones which just lower your performance and can be healed only by teammate: GX poisons, freezing, burning, divest, howling

The last group is pretty balanced: getting status doesn't equal death and ABs can efficiently cure them with AoE laudas.

Second group is, as I've said above, irrelevant. It doesn't matter what you'll do with them, as long as you can get rid of them instantly by just clicking panacea or some other item in your BM these statuses will remain useless. These statuses are only good against unprepared scrubs and even then I think only silence is decent enough to actually matter.

The first group is the one that actually matters. All these statuses turn you into vegetable, unable to move, pot, cast, in some cases additionally give you weakness to certain element/weapon type which makes you OHKOable. Players will ALWAYS try to get immunities from these statuses, but even there there are priorities: the easier the status is to spread and the more weaknesses it gives you, the higher it is on priority list. Look at these examples:

Stun - turns you into vegetable AND locks you in animation making it impossible to cast anything unless you move/use first aid/get hit or whatever. Can be easilly applied in the whole screen by dancers at pretty fast rate. This means it's really high on priority list.

Frozen - turns you into vegetable with wind weakness that can make you OHKOable. Breaks on first hit but is too common (Frost Joke, Jack Frost, SG, cards, basically lot of AoEs inslucing whole screen). It's also high on the list.

Crystalization - turns you into vegetable, slowly drains your hp and gives you weakness to wind (50% more dmg), blunt weapons (50% from maces and axes) but lowers from sharp weapons (-50% from swords, pikes, arrows). Applied by just 1 AoE with cooldown and breaks with any fire attack (back when Dragonbreath was main offensive skill nobody really cared about crystalization because it was instantly taken down with DB hit). It sure is pretty dangerous status but it isn't as common and to become immune (shorten duration to 0 seconds) you need 200 base vit which is rather unlikely to get without any non-reliable buffs. These two facts place it lower on the priority list.

Stone Curse - turns you into vegetable with fire weakness but before doing so you have some time to run back, breaks on 1 hit and I don't think there's really reliable big AoE skill that inflicts it. This places this status really low on priority list despite being on of the better statuses in general.

If there is chance to get additional immunity to common, dangerous status without completly sacrificing offensive power/damage reductions, you can take it as granted that players WILL get it (for example if beret was slotted and sleep was common people would surely sacrifice these few str/atk points to get nightmare card). This means if you want to make the most dangerous statuses relevant, you need to actually make it impossible to get immunity to them.

Another fact that it's good to know is that just because these statuses aren't inflicted doesn't mean they're useless. You can increase your chances for victory in two ways: by either increasing your own firepower/mobility etc or by decreasing your enemy firepower/mobility etc. Decreasing your enemy performance isn't just debuffing but also preventing him from certain moves. Sometimes you need to take certain strategic point not to use it yourself (for example cliff advantage works in only one way), but to prevent your enemy from using it against you. People get these immunities because they're basically forced to get them. And if you use marc card, you can't use other, better card in your armor. If you invest these stat points into vit, you can't pump your str or int even more to hit harder. These statuses actually ARE useful. They work as suppressing fire and filther out scrubs who dare to lean out from the trenches when your soldiers storm under your suppressing fire, or retards who don't wear marc in WoE.
This is argument for leaving old statuses the way they are but also something you can use to balance troublesome equipment: if something gives too high reductions you can remove slot from it. Then someone will have to make choices: superior defense or reliability.

 

3. Mechanics - how this shit works
Each status has chance for infliction and duration. Chance can be lowered by stats and gears, duration only by stats. It's important to remember that reductions from gears don't stack with stats reductions. It basically goes like this:
Check for skill success > check for gear bypassing success > check for vit bypassing success > shorten duration according to stats.
This means there're actually 2 types of immunities: by decreasing chance of infliction to 0 or by decreasing duration of status to 0. Keep that in mind because if you just disable chance immunity, people still can reduce duration to 0 and in the end not be affected by status.

But let's look at this example:
We've got Dazzler skill with 50% success chance and target with 75% gear resistance and 25 vit (let's assume vit reduces both chance and duration by 1%)
1/2 (skill chance) * 1/4 (gear chance) * 3/4 (vit chance) = 3/32 = ~0,09%
0,09% chance for infliction per skill use. Seems low, right? Now let's soo what will happen if dancer screams 5 times per second (because let's not bullshit ourselves, people use shit like AHK etc).
0,09 * 5 = 0,45%
That's 0,45% chance per second. If you we have 2 dancers it's almost 1 % per second. That's 30-60% per minute. Now let's look at the duration. If we assume that stun lasts for 30 seconds then our vit decreases only 25% of it. This gives us 22,5 seconds duration. So in the end with 2 dancers our target statistically get stunned once every something like 100 seconds. Now subtract these 22 seconds during which you'll be just sitting duck incapable of any action. That gives us about 78 seconds of action. Still not that bad, right? Then think that it was just with 2 dancers, your own dancers also affect you and there are more AoE skills that inflict stun (like Meteor Storm, Varetyr Spear, Crimson Rock or any AoE skill with status spreading cards). In the end you'll end up with yellow stars above your head every few seconds. And remember that each stun locks you into animation. At that point it doesn't even matter that it can be cured with AoE Laudas.

 

4. Solutions:
Actually it'll be one big analyze and suggestion on how to handle whole status mechanics revamp because if you're so determined to play with statuses, it'd be good to fix everything that's bad with them.

Let's start with what we found out before: to actually make any change you need to make it impossible to get immunity. This right at start throws into the trash all the suggestions that were allowing immunity at any cap: increasing stat immunity cap to 120, 130 or even 150 (btw, with just foods you can increase your vit by 30 points) doesn't change shit unless you pick value so high it'll be impossible to reach it and any investment into vit won't be worth shit. You're only fucking up character building for no reason and making calculators useless this way. It's also pretty big change. That's why best choice would be to preserve hitting reduction cap at 100 vit.

You also need to think about cards like Marc. Do you really want to nerf them? Do you think people would like something so basic to them being changed that much?

So now we'd have to decide at how many % cap chance reduction. This ofc must be balanced with status commonness (chances from skills, amount of skills that can inflict status, AoEs, spammability of skills) and status effects (stun completely prevents you from any action while poison is completly useless). That's pretty complex stuff and it'd require to judge every stat, maybe even separate them into specific categories. Ofc you can set the same cap for all statuses but then you can end up with stun or something beeing too OP while shit like bleeding or GX poisons too hard to inflict.

Then it'd be good to think about durations of all statuses and duration reduction caps. Once again we have to check status commonness and effect for every stat.

Another thing worth polishing is status stacking, including things like lex. Ofc stacking the best statuses can be really OP, but buffing weak stuff with ability to stack (for example bleeding with poison and blind and chaos etc).

It'd be really worth it tidying up mess in status - affecting stat connection. Right now vit and luk affect vast majority of statuses, then there's int affecting just 3 statuses, agi affecting 1 or 2 and str affecting just vacuum. Reduction values for each stat are so fucked up even iRO wiki doesn't show everything. For example nobody knows how much luk affects frozen status infliction chance. Clarify this, preferrably make some scheme for all statuses or at least tie 1 status to 1 stat + EVENTUALLY make luk affect it with 1/3 of main stat value or something.
In renewal 4x100 (or even 5x100 with increased lvl cap) sure can work but still is a bit less effective than specialized builds. If you spread statuses more widely over stats, you can get more weaknesses. For example making dex affect silence, str affect stone curse or agi affect freezing. There're also 2 interestign ways to do that: to either pair stats and statuses based on ability (for example dex affects cast, so it should also affect silence - if you're good at casting it should be harder to prevent you from casting), or to turn statuses into counters for specific specializations (for example silence should be reduced with stat that isn't commonly used by casters, for example vit or agi). It'd be good if they had some logical explanation though (for example casting could be done by either speaking spell or by making certain gestures with hands/staff/rod/dick/whatever).

If you find some status troublesome, you can always change its effect a bit. For example stun wouldn't be as bad if you could pot while being stunned and it didn't lock you into animation. Or you can completly change it and make it mix of chaos (random walking) and curse walking speed.

Interesting approach to solving statuses issue would be to make certain statuses lower your stats, making you vulnerable to other statuses, just like curse lowers your luk to 0. For example if you made agi affect poison, and make that poison lower target's vit to certain amount (0 for example) or by certain amount (50 for example), then inflict character with natural low agi (like mage) with poison, suddenly said mage would be vulnerable to stun. With said approach you wouldn't even need to get rid of immunities because, as I've said before, most builds aren't 4x100 anyway and everyone have at least 1 weakness to some shitty irrelevant status or stone curse. If you'd use this idea then making full circle it'd be even better because this would mean you can infect anyone with everything, you ust need to find his weakness and exploit it to create more weaknesses.

Still I think this shit shouldn't be priority. We can easily live without few shitty skills like Poison Buster or Silentium being usable, but WoE will be awful if you won't clean the mess with damage, resistances and few skills % mods or effects. So think if it's really worth the trouble to make fucking Frost Divers relevant.

Edited by Psor, 09 December 2014 - 08:40 PM.

[Syncope]

The first time ill agree with Psor. I dont think making old statuses useful again is that important and i have a feeling it will somehow fuck up the entire woe/pvp/bg game play.

[Terpsichore]

Statuses can be put into 3 groups:
>the ones which turn you into sitting duck: stun, frozen, crystalization, deep sleep, stone curse, sleep

It would be too farfetched to place stun in the same group with stuff like freeze and sleep, stun is a hard cc, the other two aren't.
Your groups are too simple, there are hard and there are soft crowd control effects, debuffs are in their own group.

 

>the ones which just lower your performance but can be cured by yourself (aka irrelevant): all this shit like blind, chaos, curse, poison, silence etc

They aren't irrelevant, they're easy to cure but also to inflict, removing them also implies using that greet potion or holy water, which has a weight value and takes up a bar a slot. How fast you cure it also matters since even half a second can make a difference. There's more to this than you think.

 

the ones which just lower your performance and can be healed only by teammate: GX poisons, freezing, burning, divest, howling

There are new consumables and items that can remove new statuses from self, even if you shouldn't be able to act normally (you can remove crystallization and deep sleep from self), those items are on a cooldown and can't be used on allies to balance it out. This opens a whole new "meta" (since you like to call it this way).

 

Stun - turns you into vegetable AND locks you in animation making it impossible to cast anything unless you move/use first aid/get hit or whatever. Can be easilly applied in the whole screen by dancers at pretty fast rate. This means it's really high on priority list.

Which is why we want to change scream, since it's only reliable way to inflict and affects whole screen. By removing delay of scream/frost joke and giving it a cooldown instead, we're making those skills way more useful outside of bragi since they can now be effectively used during random skirmishes and in pvp without turning you into a sitting duck for 3 seconds. At the same time, we're getting rid of their spammability on bragi. What's exactly wrong with this?

 

Frozen - turns you into vegetable with wind weakness that can make you OHKOable. Breaks on first hit but is too common (Frost Joke, Jack Frost, SG, cards, basically lot of AoEs inslucing whole screen). It's also high on the list.

This status is strong during small skirmishes and in pvp, not during clusterfucks, drastically reducing its duration might be the solution.

 

Crystalization - turns you into vegetable, slowly drains your hp and gives you weakness to wind (50% more dmg), blunt weapons (50% from maces and axes) but lowers from sharp weapons (-50% from swords, pikes, arrows). Applied by just 1 AoE with cooldown and breaks with any fire attack (back when Dragonbreath was main offensive skill nobody really cared about crystalization because it was instantly taken down with DB hit). It sure is pretty dangerous status but it isn't as common and to become immune (shorten duration to 0 seconds) you need 200 base vit which is rather unlikely to get without any non-reliable buffs. These two facts place it lower on the priority list.

It's a strong status but pretty hard to inflict nowadays, thanks to those new items you can remove it from self the rare times it actually lands.

 

Stone Curse - turns you into vegetable with fire weakness but before doing so you have some time to run back, breaks on 1 hit and I don't think there's really reliable big AoE skill that inflicts it. This places this status really low on priority list despite being on of the better statuses in general.

The actual stone curse skill is strong but pretty much impossible to inflict, sienna execrate petrifies you instantly so it can't be considered a hard cc, not a big deal.

 

If there is chance to get additional immunity to common, dangerous status without completly sacrificing offensive power/damage reductions, you can take it as granted that players WILL get it (for example if beret was slotted and sleep was common people would surely sacrifice these few str/atk points to get nightmare card). This means if you want to make the most dangerous statuses relevant, you need to actually make it impossible to get immunity to them.

Not true if those statuses can't be inflicted infinitely and last forever anymore (cooldown to scream, freeze duration reduction). Getting immunity becomes a nice to have option if you really want it for whatever reason instead of a necessity.

 

3. Mechanics - how this shit works
Each status has chance for infliction and duration. Chance can be lowered by stats and gears, duration only by stats. It's important to remember that reductions from gears don't stack with stats reductions. It basically goes like this:
Check for skill success > check for gear bypassing success > check for vit bypassing success > shorten duration according to stats.
This means there're actually 2 types of immunities: by decreasing chance of infliction to 0 or by decreasing duration of status to 0. Keep that in mind because if you just disable chance immunity, people still can reduce duration to 0 and in the end not be affected by status.

But let's look at this example:
We've got Dazzler skill with 50% success chance and target with 75% gear resistance and 25 vit (let's assume vit reduces both chance and duration by 1%)
1/2 (skill chance) * 1/4 (gear chance) * 3/4 (vit chance) = 3/32 = ~0,09%
0,09% chance for infliction per skill use. Seems low, right? Now let's soo what will happen if dancer screams 5 times per second (because let's not bullshit ourselves, people use shit like AHK etc).
0,09 * 5 = 0,45%
That's 0,45% chance per second. If you we have 2 dancers it's almost 1 % per second. That's 30-60% per minute. Now let's look at the duration. If we assume that stun lasts for 30 seconds then our vit decreases only 25% of it. This gives us 22,5 seconds duration. So in the end with 2 dancers our target statistically get stunned once every something like 100 seconds. Now subtract these 22 seconds during which you'll be just sitting duck incapable of any action. That gives us about 78 seconds of action. Still not that bad, right? Then think that it was just with 2 dancers, your own dancers also affect you and there are more AoE skills that inflict stun (like Meteor Storm, Varetyr Spear, Crimson Rock or any AoE skill with status spreading cards). In the end you'll end up with yellow stars above your head every few seconds. And remember that each stun locks you into animation. At that point it doesn't even matter that it can be cured with AoE Laudas.

Resistance gear is useful if your stats are low and not much when they aren't, it's always been like this and there's no good way to improve it, unless you have something in mind.

 

4. Solutions:
Actually it'll be one big analyze and suggestion on how to handle whole status mechanics revamp because if you're so determined to play with statuses, it'd be good to fix everything that's bad with them.

Let's start with what we found out before: to actually make any change you need to make it impossible to get immunity.

1. We don't want to revamp everything, just what's wrong.

2. Imunnities don't really need to be removed when you are suddenly aren't forced to get them.

 

You also need to think about cards like Marc. Do you really want to nerf them? Do you think people would like something so basic to them being changed that much?.

No we don't, see above.

 

For example making dex affect silence, str affect stone curse or agi affect freezing. There're also 2 interestign ways to do that: to either pair stats and statuses based on ability (for example dex affects cast, so it should also affect silence - if you're good at casting it should be harder to prevent you from casting)

Not to sound offensive but that sounds pretty retarded to me, have you considered that such a change would massively buff most physical damage dealers when that's the last thing we need?

 

or to turn statuses into counters for specific specializations (for example silence should be reduced with stat that isn't commonly used by casters, for example vit or agi).

I wonder why the silence resistance status was changed from vit to int, it only makes a bit of sense since melee jobs are now susceptible to it but casters suddenly immune. How about making it half and half? Resistance to silence is spread between VIT and INT, with every stat being half as effective as it would normally be, so with old formula you would need to get both 100 VIT and INT to become immune and with our formula, 124.

 

If you find some status troublesome, you can always change its effect a bit. For example stun wouldn't be as bad if you could pot while being stunned and it didn't lock you into animation. Or you can completly change it and make it mix of chaos (random walking) and curse walking speed.

Something like diminishing returns would make sense but it would be a pain in the ass to implement and will drain resources.

 

Still I think this shit shouldn't be priority. We can easily live without few shitty skills like Poison Buster or Silentium being usable, but WoE will be awful if you won't clean the mess with damage, resistances and few skills % mods or effects. So think if it's really worth the trouble to make fucking Frost Divers relevant.

It isn't much trouble since it involves changing a couple of numbers, it also can't cause any long term issues since values can be changed or reverted at any time, so we're going to play with it until nailing down something that feels just right, suggestions are always welcome.

[Hammertime]

The only thing that seems retarded here is being able to cure oneself from crystalize and deep sleep with those new rings in cash shop. Correct me if I'm wrong but those item's can't be used during crystalize, since it disables item usage. Can you use the rings when being crystalized? That would be really dumb. I thought it was suppose to work like those new consumable items being  able to cast on your allies and not on yourself to remove the effect. But being able to cure yourself that's a dumb custom? It's like a better version of refresh only working on everyone and doesn't take any effort to get it unlike the consumable items. What's the cooldown on the skill of those rings. The CD on the item is 5 seconds or so.  If you can remove crystalize like that and deep sleep it seems a huge nerf to some classes that are already not that great think about wanderer for example: deep sleep is handsdown one of the best skills on that class. Also ruining the usefullness of AB -> curing statusses. Siince you were going to manage the damage and make it less. Crystalize is one of the reliable ways of killing some1 as it disables consumable usage. Those rings will completely ruin this. Shitty customs. First dark claw ruined ( the reliable way for gx to kill tanky classes like RK) and now crystalize another nice way to kill that class. RKRo incoming?

Edited by Cenel, 10 December 2014 - 01:03 AM.

[Byte]

those new accessories are not custom. the dark claw change was very warranted. you will still kill RKs with dark claw, you just won't deal enough damage to kill them ten times over.

[Terpsichore]

The rings are official and cast the same skill those Eclage consumables do. There's no clear information about how exactly they work and they did nothing by default do we changed them to something that makes sense.

 

Making them player targeted would allow for multiple players to constantly remove statuses from someone, which does sound pretty gamebreaking and would limit the usefulness of status removal skills. Making them self targeted removes the stacking issue and gives more individual options.

 

Cooldown is 5 seconds by default, we could increase it and make those skills share the same cooldown or something.

 

 

As for Dark Claw, it's default implementation was too troublesome since it stacks with lex, works on MvPs and allies benefit from it as well, now it lasts for longer and affects magical damage without allowing for oneshots.

[Hammertime]

Crystalization blocks the use of items and skills during it's duration. It shouldn't work when it's inflicted period. Rather make it castable on other players the way it was intended to be as you could cast snow flip on others.

Edited by Cenel, 10 December 2014 - 01:29 AM.

[Terpsichore]

The skills can be used when you're disabled, that's the whole point.

 

Can you show me some official sources on how those skills are supposed to work?

[Hammertime]

I think they simply cast the the skill that snow flip/peony mommy etc those items give. They should work with the effects that don't block items and skill usage. I think the item(snow flip) does work with deep sleep as you can use items in deep sleep. Can you test this crystalization effect and the ring that gives Peony mommy? Are you sure it works on yourself when you are affected by crystalization. The Peony Mommy herb couldn't be casted on yourself when inflicted by crystalization, since item/skill usage disabled, thus you couldn't cure yourself, that's how it was on iRo.

Edited by Cenel, 10 December 2014 - 01:55 AM.

[Terpsichore]

If you remember how those items work, tell me if:

The skill prompts for a target or is self targeted.

If you can target others, what's the range?

[Hammertime]

The item promps for a target on which the skill is going to be used. It's similiar to yggleaf. Script is itemskill "skill". I have no clue about the range. I'm still looking for sources.

[dallashunter]

Peony mommy and other eclage herbs have 7 cells range and are targeted skills. http://forums.irowik...89&postcount=29

As for Kvasir Rings, originally they are obtained from WoE:TE guild dungeon quest, and they're kinda hard to get (need lots of materials) http://forums.warppo...-and-woe-coins/ so I don't know about having them in cash shop, isn't that kinda too easy to obtain?

[Krabs]

Remove it from cash shop, add it on achievement reward
Please dont screw my deepsleep, I riot

[Terpsichore]

Peony mommy and other eclage herbs have 7 cells range and are targeted skills. http://forums.irowik...89&postcount=29
As for Kvasir Rings, originally they are obtained from WoE:TE guild dungeon quest, and they're kinda hard to get (need lots of materials) http://forums.warppo...-and-woe-coins/ so I don't know about having them in cash shop, isn't that kinda too easy to obtain?

Looks like a typical iRO fuckup, notice the guy at the bottom talking about jRO:


"If the item's as powerful as a godly then that'l make some sense but it isn't.

In fact the ring cost only 1k woe coinsi jRO, even less than the feather beret.

I think it's more likely a miss translation or simple human error added a zero on that..."


Is there any kRO info available?



As for the skills themselves, if they are targeted AND ranged then it becomes exceedingly easy to deal with statuses, this is why we made them self targeted, and to work when CCed as a new option to explore.

Any suggestions?

[Krabs]

Add more cd like 5min or so, 5sec spammable makes me useless in woe

[dallashunter]

Unfortunately I haven't been able to found any info from kRO yet, and yeah, I'm aware of that iRO mistakes, they actually got it reported and the issue is subjected to change (though atm it's still not changed yet).

But still, even with jRO's coin requirement, getting the rings is still not a simple task since there are only 10 daily quests which give 1 coin each per day, and 4 of them require you to have castle on each realm. There are also other quests, but those can only be done in WoE time which means once a week. http://ragnarokonlin...n/databook.html

Having the rings in cash shop might put people who play classes who rely on those debuffs at disadvantage because other people can just bought them easily. So, maybe you could either have it obtained from other ways aside from cash shop, or change the downtime like Krabs suggested above.

[Terpsichore]

5 minutes is excessive though, how about increasing it to 10 sec and making gear swapping not possible when affected by CCs? This way you would need to have the ring equipped before getting hit.

[padkoto]

That would be a huge buff to statuses just to add a pretty dumb accessory. Please don't do that

[Terpsichore]

Well then, what should the cooldown be?

[Syncope]

Dont add the accessory. It kinda breaks the set up of some classes.